Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Kobe Bryant Isn't Up To Speed On Jeremy Lin, 'Linning'

A Quick Note on the Yao vs. Howard Debate

Yao_dwight_medium

Dwight Howard is better than Yao Ming?  You can't be serious...

I've read countless arguments that crown Howard as the king of all centers.  There's definitely a case for Howard.  Problem is, his case is nowhere near as convincing as Yao's.  This is why I think Yao is better:

Head to Head:

I'll get this out of the way, because for some reason, not many people are aware of Yao's domination of Dwight over the years.  Take a look for yourself at the head-to-head statistics, courtesy of Basketball-Reference.

Picture_3_medium

If you can't read that, then click here to see an enlarged version plus the complete list of game logs for their head to head match ups.  Like I said, it's not even close.  Even better, the Rockets are 6-2 against the Magic in the 8 games that Yao has faced Dwight.  Just in case you want to get into a "which team is better" debate...

General Talent:

Here is my somewhat biased player analysis, as I have not seen Dwight Howard play as much as Yao.  That said, I believe what I have written down is a generally accurate portrayal of Dwight, and though it is jumbled and rushed, it should make sense:

  • Post Moves -- Yao.  I think Dwight has a more polished post game than most give him credit for.  He has excellent footwork, and his jump hook in the lane is slowly progressing.  That said, Yao Ming is the best post-up player in the entire league.  He has a turnaround fadeaway jumper, a hook shot (with both his right and left hands), and a nice one-dribble move into the lane that can get him separation for a jumper.  The one thing Howard needs to work on, besides his general touch from the block, is his ability to counter good defensive position.  He can effectively spin and provide himself position for a dunk, but when it isn't there, he runs out of options.  Yao is able to pivot and look for a second option if his first is taken away; this is something Dwight still needs to work on.  While Dwight will eventually develop better moves, the edge clearly goes to Yao.
  • Athleticism -- Dwight.  I shouldn't have to explain this one.  Dwight can run up and down the court and can dunk at any given moment.  Yao is athletic for his massive size, but he simply cannot do what Superman can.
  • Post Defense -- Even.  This choice may garner the most criticism, because Dwight blocks more shots than Yao.  The problem with Dwight is that his blocked shots normally end up in the fifth row.  Yao will do that occasionally, but the majority of his blocks are recovered by his teammates.  In terms of simply bodying up on the block, Yao has great defensive footwork and doesn't get beat on basic power moves - which is what Dwight brings to the table.  Yao and Howard do an equally great job when it comes to help defense and changing shots in the lane, but Dwight has a tendency to break down against centers that have a decent finesse/traditional post move and gives up points while trying to go for the blocked shot.  That said, he is still an excellent post defender.  So is Yao.  So they are equal.
  • Perimeter Defense -- Dwight.  This one isn't even close.  The one way to beat Yao is stay on the perimeter and shoot it from there, which is why Mehmet Okur has a tendency to hurt us.  Yao can't help on the pick and roll because it requires too much sudden movement for him, and it hurts our defense quite often.  Howard is able to defend on the perimeter and show help on pick and rolls.
  • Offensive Range -- Yao.  Yao can shoot threes, by the way, but since he doesn't do it enough, I'll leave it out of the argument.  However, Yao does make shots from the free throw line and from about fifteen feet on the baseline frequently.  Dwight's game doesn't really extend outside of the paint.
  • Rebounding -- Dwight.  If there is one thing that Yao needs to severely work on, it's his defensive rebounding.  Game by game, he will either miss-time his jumps or be too far under the basket to grab a ball that quickly bounces off the rim.  Too often, he misses rebounds that he should have easily gotten.  Howard scoops up everything around the rim, and is much more effective on the offensive boards as well.
  • Free Throw Shooting -- Yao.  Yao's the greatest free-throw shooting big man of all time.  If you find someone else who is better, let me know.  He's been over 80% for his entire career.  On the other hand, Dwight shoots 60%.  This wouldn't be such an awful number if Superman didn't take so many free throws per game.  His average number of attempts from the charity stripe is 11, and for him to only make 6.6 of them per game is a huge detriment to his team.  Yao can convert when he is fouled.  Dwight is never a sure thing.
  • Passing --  Yao.  Neither of them are Steve Nash, but Yao is coming along.  He is an excellent kick-out passer when the double team comes, and his touch passes in the lane are getting there - he just needs to work on his timing.  From what I have read and heard, Dwight's passing has plenty of issues and needs some work.  This is the category that I have the least amount of information on Dwight, so if you're going to attack me, look elsewhere, as this would be too easy to criticize.
  • Ball handling/hands -- Dwight.  While Howard isn't exactly immune to turnovers, he does a much better job catching the ball in the post than Yao.  His hands in general are much more polished, and his turnovers rarely come from fundamental movements.  Yao, on the other hand, has a tendency to drop easy passes, and he will lose possession of the ball when the slightest contact his made.  
  • Clutchness -- Yao.  First and foremost, you cannot foul Yao in crunch time.  If you do, it's an automatic two points for us.  Fouling Dwight proves to be effective at times, as his free throw shooting lacks consistency.  Aside from free throws, Yao's clutch statistics from 82games.com are far superior to Howard's.  While I know that one cannot solely base "clutchness" on a relatively basic statistic such as this, it does serve as a good indicator nonetheless.  Yao's are shown first, followed by Dwight's:  Picture_4_medium Picture_6_medium Picture_5_medium Picture_7_medium

While I can see why many people look at Dwight's dominating dunks, powerful blocked shots, his general athleticism, and his basic numbers as criterion for why he is a better center, I think that there is plenty more to it.  Based off this view, Yao is the better center.  

Ask me again in five years, and I won't hesitate when I say that it's Dwight Howard.  But as for the here and now?  Yao Ming.

Don't listen to Mark Jackson.

Comment 45 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Rebounding

is a difficult thing to measure. Yeah, we can count rebounds grabbed, and we can measure what percentage of rebounds a player gets to, but players can have a big effect on rebounding even without grabbing the ball. Dwight is, in general, better able to get to the ball and keep it, thanks to his superior athleticism and hands, but Yao might have an effect on team rebounding that we can only figure out from his absence. Maybe he’s better at tipping the ball to teammates or in simply keeping opponents off the ball. Howard would still be the far more valuable rebounder, but maybe the gap between the two is more narrow than we believe.

Dwight is only 22, and if he can perfect his post moves and his shooting touch, he’s going to be transcendent. It would help if he could learn to make his free throws, too.

I think what we forget when discussing who’s the better center is the roles these players perform on their teams, and what sort of teams they would work with. When we ask, “Who’s the best x in the league?” we mean, in a way, “If I were a GM building a team for only a single season, which x would I want above all others?”

There’s a clear answer for that question with, say, shooting guards: I’d want Kobe, hands down. There’s a clear answer for small forwards: I’d want LeBron. I’d want Chris Paul for point guard and Tim Duncan for power forward. Doesn’t matter what type of team I have, if I’m given a choice at a particular position, those are the players I’d want.

But what about center? It depends entirely, I think, on what type of team you’re building. If I’m running something like the Suns’ offense, I’d want Howard. His athleticism would be absolutely terrifying in that offense, and his defensive contributions would perhaps make the Suns into a top-5 team.

But if I’m running a more traditional offense – a half-court set offense – then Yao is probably the better fit. And if I’ve got a team with a good defense but poor offense (like, say, the Rockets), then Yao makes more sense, too. That’s not to say Howard is bad in a traditional offense – it’s not like SVG is running anything particularly exciting in Orlando – because he’s a great player even in a slower-paced game, but he’d be much better suited to playing like Amare in Phoenix.

My point is that, when there’s no clear answer for “Who would I take?”, then we can probably say that they’re on a roughly equal level.

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 7, 2009 2:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah, in total agreement there.

I just think if you are going to ask the question of “Who is the best center?” and you’re demanding an answer, that is how I would answer it definitively. You’re right, each would fit a certain team differently.

"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak

by Tom Martin on Apr 7, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Howard would still be the far more valuable rebounder, but maybe the gap between the two is more narrow than we believe.

And yet you gave us no facts on why we’re supposed to believe the gap in rebounding should be more narrow. All you’ve said is that Yao tips the ball to other players. Well unfortunately he’s also tipped the ball to the opposing team or tipped it out of bounds. Maybe they should be considered negative rebounds.


But if I’m running a more traditional offense – a half-court set offense – then Yao is probably the better fit. And if I’ve got a team with a good defense but poor offense (like, say, the Rockets), then Yao makes more sense, too. That’s not to say Howard is bad in a traditional offense – it’s not like SVG is running anything particularly exciting in Orlando – because he’s a great player even in a slower-paced game, but he’d be much better suited to playing like Amare in Phoenix.

This is a good point. Howard could play in any offensive system and be productive. You can’t say that about Yao. That’s why a GM would take Howard over Yao in a heart beat, not to mention the age factor. We’ve already seen Yao at his peak. Who knows what Howard’s peak would look like. If Dwight can learn the finesse game from his mentor and coach Patrick Ewing, he could be unbelievable.

by goingforthecorner on Apr 7, 2009 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

And yet you gave us no facts on why we’re supposed to believe the gap in rebounding should be more narrow. All you’ve said is that Yao tips the ball to other players. Well unfortunately he’s also tipped the ball to the opposing team or tipped it out of bounds. Maybe they should be considered negative rebounds.

Well, that’s partly why I said “maybe.” I’m positing an idea about rebounding stats and how they might not tell the whole story. We have access to the differences in rebounding % between when Yao is on and off the court, but that’s definitely affected by who replaces him. I’m not sure Yao is any good at tipping rebounds or greatly affecting team rebounding positively, I’m saying that there’s an area of rebounding that isn’t being tracked in conventional stats. I never made any positive statements about what Yao can do at all, and I don’t know why you thought I made such a claim.
In any case, comments Morey has made indicates that this is the sort of stuff the Rockets’ FO keeps track of, and it’s unfortunate that fans don’t have access to it.

As a side note, your tone is really coming off as confrontational and you need to tone it down a bit. Same thing happened at TCB, and I’m not entirely sure why you seem to be taking statement I make that you disagree with so personally.

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 8, 2009 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Howdy Dream Shakers

Just a little Orlando perspective. I don’t watch a lot of Houston games, so I am only exposed to the spoon-fed Sportscenter clips. With that said-

I think the debate on who is a better player is pretty futile. Both players are monsters and crucial to their team’s success. It really depends on what type of Basketball is played and both players fit their systems very well.

This list is very accurate. The only point I draw attention to is the passing. Dwight is also getting better at the kick out pass. Orlando will be looking to play inside out more often (I don’t know how they don’t every game). When Orlando played Atlanta this past weekend, we won because of Dwight’s huge showing. He had 5 assists and a few outlet passes that swung around for an open threes. I would call this catagory even.

The comment above about Yao and rebounding is spot on. Yao’s body is large enough to box out/command attention from other rebounders… opening up the floor. Yao makes Houston a better rebounding team.

Just like Dwight makes Orlando a top tier defensive team. Driving to the lane is pointless in the 4th quarter (See Paul Pierce and Lebron James).

So who is better? Well, I am a Magic fan… I vote Dwight. But I can respect Yao and I do. Thanks to Bring Back Novak for the great observations. Enjoy the game!

by The Stan 'Stache on Apr 7, 2009 4:28 PM CDT reply actions  

I completely agree

Yao is better right now, but I dont think head to head stats can be used to compare players because thats what Jazz fans always use to say Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul, and as good as Deron is, he’s not CP3.

You're not foolin me Kerry Collins.

by TitanFan2K on Apr 7, 2009 5:09 PM CDT reply actions  

the difference

is that, statistically, Howard and Yao are pretty similar. There’s just no comparing Williams (or any other PG) to Paul, statistically.

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 7, 2009 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

well

Deron and Paul are about as similar statistically as Dwight and Yao. Deron averages 19PPG and 11APG and Paul averages 23PPG and 11APG. Deron shoots 47% from the field. Paul shoots 50% from the field. Paul has a huge edge in the rebound and steal category, but Dwight has a huge edge in the rebound and blocks category over Yao.

The thing about comparing the two by making a laundry list of skills is that each of those skills aren’t equal. Yao is an absolutely better offensive player in terms of skill set. You can feed him the ball in the post and if he’s single teamed, he’ll get a high percentage shot the vast majority of the time. And yet, Howard scores more points (ever so slightly) and shoots a higher percentage from the field (ever so slightly). And it’s because of his superior athleticism and offensive rebounding and hands that he’s able to do a bit more than Yao offensively despite the clear difference in “skill” level.

And defensively, I don’t agree that Yao and Dwight are equal “post defenders,” which should probably read interior defense given the description that was provided. The extra block a game and the four extra rebounds that Dwight provides are a pretty significant statistical difference between the two, and I do think the Rockets would clearly be a better defensive team with Howard instead of Yao.

All that said, Yao is a better option for this team as it’s constructed now because Dwight needs perimeter players who can create since the offense isn’t starting with Dwight. And can you imagine the Rockets offense starting with Artest every possession? Or Aaron Brooks? That’d be a nightmare and the Rockets would just have to hope that Dwight could gobble up a large number of offensive rebounds. But if we had a time machine and could bring back the Tracy McGrady of three years ago, and run the pick and roll with him and Dwight, the Rockets would probably be better off with Dwight.

by forshizzzle on Apr 8, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

for Williams and Paul

the stats don’t tell the story until you adjust for pace. The Jazz play at one of the quickest paces in the league, so 19 points and 11 assists don’t mean nearly as much as Paul’s 23 points and 11 assists. Once you adjust for pace, Paul is better in every single category than Williams. It’s not even close.

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 8, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

you're missing the point

The point is that statistically Yao and Dwight aren’t all that similar.

by forshizzzle on Apr 8, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great news for the game tonight

Landry is back!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6363509.html

It’ll be good to see him back on the court. Hopefully he’s fully healed mentally and physically from the accident.

"I'm just looking forward to something great happening in the city of Houston" - Tracy McGrady

Still waiting...

by DreKeem on Apr 7, 2009 7:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Who has won more playoff series?

Between Dwight and YAO, that stat is missing….

by Dwight Dunks ON U on Apr 8, 2009 9:43 AM CDT reply actions  

what an insightful view into basketball you have

you do understand that basketball is a team sport, right? The NBA is not decided like your 1×1 rec league. Of course, Dwight got his ass handed to him last night, so it’s probably a good thing for him that it’s not run like you seem to think.

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 8, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

here ya go:

here’s some great info on basketball. You might need a refresher on what it is you’re watching. Pay particular attention to the section of basketball “teams.” A “team” is a collection of players, and it is what plays “basketball” in a basketball “game.”

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 8, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

no attempt at humor, son

you don’t seem to understand the structure of the game, so I thought I’d give you a quick lesson on it. I know you just think it’s a show you watch on TV so you can get all hot and bothered by Dwight, but it’s more than that. Come back and talk when you know what the hell you’re talking about. Or when your trolling is up to par. It’s pretty weak as it is.

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 8, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, but that's because I'm not entirely convinced you're trolling

while that would normally be the sign of a good troll, you’re stuff is just too bad for that to be true. It’s like a pitcher with a 2.00 ERA but who never struck out a batter – good result, bad peripherals.

listen, if you want to learn to actually, you know, be good at trolling, go learn at /b/ or something.

by Only_A_Lad on Apr 8, 2009 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

At his peak?!?!........

Are you serious??? We have NOT seen Yao at his peak, and i can’t wait until we do because he is already THE BEST CENTER IN THE LEAGUE. last nights game showed that, dwight had NO answer for Yao. Yes dwight will get better with age also, but to make it sound as if will straight dominate later…sorry, i just dont think so.

by kg_2005 on Apr 8, 2009 9:56 AM CDT reply actions  

Yao

You owns Howard. Period. Domination by the great wall.

by mutombo4life on Apr 8, 2009 10:46 AM CDT reply actions  

Yao

watch out for my misspellings. they might trip you up

by mutombo4life on Apr 8, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rockets...not Raptors

you may be confused…Yao and the Rockets have defeated Dwight and the Magic in a best of 9 of sorts…and then some.

in Howard’s only two playoff appearances, he has helped the Magic to overcome the Raptors. Seriously…the Raptors. Please try to refrain from boasting about this or really anything else from the Leastern Conference too much.

if we drew the Raptors…shucks, if we drew the Magic, in the first round – good times for the Rocket fan. Alas, we’re in the Western Conference….

by canlah on Apr 8, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

RE: Domination..........

In nine games yao 23/10 howard 12/9, there goes your pts/reb. oh yeah and we have taken 7 out of those 9. that’s the domination im talking about one on one, and if you want a little taste of how a series would go. the stats don’t lie.

by kg_2005 on Apr 8, 2009 11:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Speaking of May.
Rockets MAY/might defeat the jazz.
Pretty sure the Magic still won’t be able to get past the Pistons if they face them.

by Xiang on Apr 9, 2009 7:11 AM CDT reply actions  

Dwight gets schooled by Yao

That is reality!

It takes a big man to walk away, but a bigger man to break his freaking jaw!

by USMC_Texas on Apr 9, 2009 1:50 PM CDT reply actions  

I think Dwight Howard’s superior defense + rebounding is more valuable than Yao’s superior offensive game, ergo, I think Dwight Howard is the superior player.

However, I regard Tim Duncan as a center and as a better than both of these guys. For my money, he’s the “Best Center In The NBA”.

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/

by NBR on Apr 11, 2009 8:39 AM CDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The Dream Shake: Dedicated to all things Houston Rockets. Past, present and future. Expect criticism, commentary and shameless promotions to get Robert Horry into the Hall of Fame.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Hunter-s_small
Blazers Fan Here: Kevin Love Is A real Jerk!
340x_small
Anyone Here Interested In Wilson Chandler?

Recent FanPosts

Guide04_small
Love requited - Greg Smith Signs with The Rockets
Small
So you are an NBA owner and have 60 mil in cap space THIS year….
Yaoface_small
I'm just gonna leave this here
340x_small
Would You Do a Martin-Noah swap?
Megaman_small
KAMAN
Rockets_small
Whats wrong wit da rockets...
Small
Beasley discovers hidden basketball talent to help Wolves take down Rockets 120-108
Images_small
Rockets Interested in Kaman??
Small
2012 Free Agents: It's Never Too Early For Plan B

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SBN Hoops Twitter


Editor

Picture_47_small Tom Martin

Daryl Morey Wannabes

Kurt-avatar_small grungedave

Img_4429_small UofTOrange

Cat_small Only_A_Lad

Guide04_small Xiane

Screenhunter_01_dec Mike Kerns

Crabtree_small ak2themax

Awesome_small BD34

Tds_small Patrick Harrel