About Those Elbows...
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 9:23 AM CDT
in Random Commentary
150 comments
I'm by no means a real fan of J.A. Adande, but he makes an interesting point in this morning's Daily Dime, contrary to my belief that he would side with his Lakers, whom he covered for a long time. His first thought ties into the Kobe Bryant situation. Adande writes:
Most significant is an elbow Bryant threw that caught Artest in the throat as they were jockeying for position under the basket. The NBA rulebook states that a player must be ejected for "an elbow foul which makes contact above shoulder level." By the standard that's been set in these playoffs, Bryant should be suspended. Orlando's Dwight Howard was when he elbowed Philadelphia's Samuel Dalembert in the head. Superstar or not, the head and neck have been deemed off-limits for elbows.
Then he gets to Fisher:
The explanation put forth by Fisher and advocated by Phil Jackson was that Fisher just wanted to fight through the screen and it looked worse because Scola stopped short of where Fisher expected him to be.
Uh-uh. We haven't seen someone take so long to load up since people were fighting with muskets. But what could keep Fisher in the lineup for Game 3 was that Fisher hit Scola square in the chest -- below the shoulders. It's similar to the justification for not suspending Rajon Rondo for his roller-derby toss of Kirk Hinrich into the scorer's table
It's a very level-headed prospective. I wrote that Scola was hit in the face, but that was on my first look at the play. After reviewing it, it does look like first contact point is in the upper chest area. It's the beauty of replay - I may have written something based off what I saw last night, but after some clarification, I can then report my updated opinion.
I think we would all like Fisher to be suspended, but if he isn't, we will have an appropriate explanation. That is, if Kobe Bryant is suspended instead.
It will depend what the league decides to do. Either you suspend the league's most popular player and stay consistent, or you branch off that and only suspend Fisher. An excuse from the league may be that there was no foul called on Kobe, whereas Fisher was immediately tossed. If that indeed becomes the case, then shame on the NBA for changing up their policies.
I think it is asking a little much to see both Bryant and Fisher suspended, and according to what Adande has written, it would be a surprise. But I don't think it would be unfair, as Fisher's attempt was clearly with malicious intent. However, as we wait, look for a single suspension. The right call would be to suspend Bryant and take a pass on Fisher, allowing the ejection to serve as his punishment. It annoys me to let Fisher off like that, but I just don't see the league suspending two players from the same team without suspending a player from the opposing team. And if they suspend Ron Artest, that would be a shame. He did nothing to warrant a suspension - all he did was run his mouth, something that Kobe did for the entire game.
However, we know how the NBA values its superstars. We know that they would like to see Kobe in uniform for Game 3 for the sake of the series. But if they suspended Dwight Howard, then they shouldn't lay off of Bryant. It would be obvious favoritism.
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i am not sure that the best way to win the series is bc kobe and fish are suspended.. I say we just move on and kick their ass fair and square.
maybe next season..
by fire richard justice on May 7, 2009 9:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't care less if the Rockets win because Kobe is out a game
The goal is to win, not win against a full opponent.
And Kobe deserves to finally be suspended for these cheap shots, but he won’t be.
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
there’s any way Ron is getting suspended.
Also, whether we like it not – I don’t think either Fisher or Bryant is getting suspended.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 7, 2009 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no way Ron gets suspended
He talked to another player
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
League rules set forth for Playoffs.......
If you hit with an elbow above the shoulders, automatic suspension, ask Dwight Howard. If they favor LA, like the NBA usually does, there will be hell about that in the end, and I don’t think Alexander should except bad decisions on the part of the NBA for this game!! Hope Alexander stands up for his team!!!
by kmbrly429 on May 7, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why, then wasn't
rondo suspended for the blow to the face of Brad Miller?
by Lakers Rule on May 7, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because rondo was "going for the ball"
i think its bull shit but thats a legit excuse
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For a few reasons
1. It was a hand, not an elbow
2. You could make the argument he was going for the ball, then decided to foul because he missed it and in the split second that he made that decision fouled him, unfortunately in the face.
Now, I don’t believe number 2, but you could make the argument. Under no circumstances can you make that arguement for Kobe, he’s thrown two elbows and a knee in this series already. None of them were accidents
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Three options
1. Suspend Fisher and fine Kobe 50,000.
2. Suspend Fisher and suspend Kobe.
3. Fine Fisher and suspend Artest, then after the backlash fire Crawford permanently, fire Stern for gross incompetence, begin rebuilding how the game is played.
by texasag on May 7, 2009 9:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
AGREE!!!!!
I was all for IMPEACHMENT of David Stern for alonnnnnnnnng time now!!! It is TIME!!!!!
by kmbrly429 on May 7, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it just a coincidence or are all of the worst officiated games officiated by Crawford?
Another option.
Suspend Kobe
Suspend Fischer
Suspend Crawford
And if the league ever wants to be taken seriously – Fire Stern!
Stern’s to the NBA what Upshaw is to the NFL.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woah now
Stern has made the NBA, it’s all been under his guidance. He may have issues, but he’s no where near a bad head guy
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot, MJ, Bird, Magic had nothing to do with the NBA exploding all over the world.
It wasn’t the fact we had the privilege of watching the best players ever, it was the guy behind the scenes. Too bad, Stern believes that too.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
stern has done a spectacular job in marketing the league worldwide and putting teams in good markets
he has done a horrible job with officiating.
by Only_A_Lad on May 7, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the point. If you can't trust the officiating what good is that doing for the
league? Stern had done a good job marketing the league, but he’s done it at the expense of the game. I don’t know the percentage, but I have a feeling a vast majority of fans feel at least some of (or part of) the games are fixed.
Sterns legacy is allowing “celebrity” players to get away with anything without consequence. I’m not sure if that’s good for the game either.
I’m not sure you or I or anyone else couldn’t have marketed the league any better. It’s easy to do when you had the best possible product. Your not talking about Stern turning the ABA into a world wide business after all.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe suspension
Ok, I’m a Lakers fan and so you’re free to take this with a grain of salt, but this is the screen-capture of Kobe’s contact with Artest. I think it is an offensive foul, but the angle of the upper arm makes it almost impossible for Artest to have been hit in the throat.
I understand Rockets fans’ anger about the game, but I think you want to beat the Lakers at their best, and not because of a questionable Kobe suspension.
by rjorellana on May 7, 2009 9:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To be clear
I am not going to attempt to defend Fisher’s hit. It was clearly outside the bounds of the game, and I wouldn’t complain at all about him receiving a one-game suspension. The ejection was clearly warranted.
by rjorellana on May 7, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you'd
be singing a different tune of it was Kobe who put on his best Shawne Merriman impression. The difference is that Fisher is old and relatively useless anyway.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 7, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?? Nice Try...
I love how you took a screen shot of something before the elbow was actually thrown. Do lakers fans have any concept of reality. If youre going to use a photo as an example, GET THE RIGHT ONE.
It is clear that kobe elbowed Ron in the neck, like it or not. Quit being such a puss and realize the truth.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, i was going to respond
But if you’re just going to call me a puss for arguing a point with some actual evidence, it can’t possibly do any good. If you are going to assume that I am intentionally being dishonest and biased without any evidence of my character, I won’t bother.
by rjorellana on May 7, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your evidence is flawed
The picture is obviously from before the elbow is thrown. Maybe you thought it was picture proof but it is simply not.
by erod on May 7, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stern could have it on 100" Plasma slow mo right in front of his face. Do you really
think he’ll suspend Kobe?
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO
and thats the whole problem
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all
that pic shows artest elbowing Kobe in the head so if your saying that elbows to the head merit suspension then …
But what happened preceding Kobes alleged elbow was that artest was using his forearm to shove kobe half way across the lane -and it was a forearm to the back of the head of kobe.
His reaction after demonstrates clearly that Artest is a violent and mentally unbalanced player (as if this was not already clear) and should be banned from the nba.
by Lakers Rule on May 7, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His forearm didn't touch Kobe's head, you just made that up
He wasn’t even pushing with his arm, he was bumping with his hip. Seriously, don’t just make stuff up.
Kobe threw an elbow, just admit it, geeze
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
New Rules
David Stern officially announced today that the league has instituted a 3 foot rule for Kobe Bryant. Opposing players are not allowed to box out. Should an opposing player get to close to Kobe, he is allowed to throw wild elbows. Should an opposing player violate the rule and step into the general area where Kobe is throwing the elbow, not only will a foul not be called on Kobe, the league will call a foul on the opposing player, and then throw you out of the game for getting upset about the foul (or the elbow to the throat). Ok, maybe it’s not official, but isn’t that what the league is really saying if they do nothing? And does any one think Joey Crawford is a good official? Every team has one or two officials that they feel are out to get them, but I don’t know any team that has praised Joey Crawford. There are plenty of officials in the league, I believe each playoff team should be able to exclude one offical form calling their series. Of course that would mean Joey never calls another playoff game, but would that be such a bad thin?
by theMajician on May 7, 2009 10:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This had bugged me for years. Kobe is a dirty player and gets away with more fouls per game
than anyone else in the NBA.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My prediction?
- Artest suspended for getting in Kobe’s face
- Scola suspended for “flopping”
- Kobe and Fisher assessed a light fine, Fisher’s flagrant downgraded to a technical, Kobe given “Playoff Sportsmanship Award”
by BeefySwats on May 7, 2009 10:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As much as i believe that could happen....
The league has never suspended someone for flopping, so why not start now??
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Dwight Howard comparisons are poor ones
Dwight Howard was suspended because after the play was over he turned around and then threw an elbow right into Dalembert’s head. It was a deliberate punch to the head, basically, except that he used his elbow instead of his fist. That’s a far cry from Kobe throwing an elbow back while he’s fighting for position for a rebound.
It’ll be interesting to see if the league has a different camera angle of Kobe’s elbowing, because it’s honestly fairly unclear exactly where Kobe connected with that elbow going by what we saw on TV last night. If anything it looked like Kobe hit Artest in his chest, but you really can’t see for sure because both players have their backs to the camera. So unless the NBA has a better angle, I doubt you’ll see a suspension there.
Oddly enough, I think you probably will see a suspension on Fisher, even though, as you say, Fisher just hit Scola in the chest with his shoulder. I think the league will probably be worried about any perceived favoritism with the Lakers and will suspend Fisher for a game; but they’d have a real hard time looking like they’re not trying to fix this series if they suspended Kobe for an elbow to the chest while jockeying for rebounding position. That kind of stuff happens all the time with big men.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 10:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is where I stopped reading your mostly logical post.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 7, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're misinterpreting me then
I probably should have said they league would be worried about any perceived favoritism to any team, but in this case it just happens to be the Lakers. People gripe all the time about the inconsistency with how the league handles things of this nature (suspensions and the like), but for me it seems like the league usually responds as much to what the perception or media-wide discussion of the events was as much as they respond to just what they saw happen.
I think because there is so much clamoring for Fisher to be suspended for what was definitely a premeditated cheap shot on Scola, the fact that said shot technically didn’t entail anything which would warrant a suspension will probably be ignored and Fisher will get the suspension anyway. What I meant above was that if the league didn’t suspend Fisher, even though the replay shows that he probably shouldn’t get suspended, as it was just a shoulder to chest foul, then there would be mass outrage that the league was in some way favoring the Lakers (a sentiment which is widely believed already anyway).
I think at this point the league is most concerned about trying to appear to be fair, and as a result meets out suspensions and punishments in an inconsistent and unfair way so as not to upset that appearance any more than they already have. That’s all I meant.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it is completely fair...
for your players to throw elbows and stay in the game, when one of our players talks and gets thrown out. As the Rock said, “Know your role and shut your mouth”
Check out nickandroll.blogspot.com
by n1ck34 on May 7, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe just does while inplay ..........
so he knows he wont get called for it, that is what you call cheap shots, unsportsman like play. That is why LBJ won MVP.
by kmbrly429 on May 7, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good reasoning
Probably nothing to do with Lebron’s team posting the best record in the NBA.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm very surprised at the whining going on
for fans of a team who say they are “naturally” tough and physical. The Kobe “elbow” is a non issue, and would be if Ron didn’t get himself run.
It’s so common, it’s laughable that we’re discussing this. The issue is Fish.
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 10:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well
that elbow looked deliberate and a elbow to the neck is pretty dangerous…that and the other elbows artest got from kobe with no calls going his way
kobe’s always got his way with these dirty moves…remember his “follow through” hit on ginobilli after his jump shot? Very deliberate indeed. I’m not a fan of ginobilli because he is one of the cheapest players to play the game, but that “follow through” was a deliberate hit. Ginobilli was just beside him and was also called for the foul.
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be real.
Have you ever played the game? It was not an elbow to the neck. Ron’s emotional.
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the replay
it was clearly an elbow to the neck – kobe was the one emotional at that play (not afterwards) cuz he got tangled up with artest and was getting frustrated so he used his elbow to get a better position for the rebound
and yes, i;ve played the game for many years to know that you are supposed to elbow someone in the neck to get position for a rebound – nor have i let anyone get away with that afterwards – its a dangerous hit
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've played the game.
It’s one thing to put your shoulder into a guy and muscle him out of position. It’s quite another when you throw an elbow above his shoulders.
The Dream Shake
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, for a Lakers fan if you can't defend Kobe throwing elbows, what else are you
going to do. Kobe is classless.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Make a Wish Foundation
Whether you like Kobe or not, this is a side of him everyone should know about.
Bryant’s work with kids brings joy, though sometimes it’s fleeting
Kobe Bryant meets every child brought to him through the Make-A-Wish Foundation, which means not every ending will be happy.
Kevin Ding
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's just helping all his illegitimate children out there without acknowledging them.
I’m sure he pitches in his dollar at Kroger’s when he buys his groceries.
by divinebovine on May 7, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you're blind
I guess that elbow he threw went somewhere else?
by osa1011 on May 7, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the lakers' newfound "toughness"
Yeah, the Lakers toughness consists of cheap shots, dirty fouls and trash talking whenever you hit a basket…real tough
the Lakers were probably crying wah wah wah why the rockets have to actually play because the the lakers should be entitled to goto the championship game.
Looking at Kobe’s elbow to artest’s neck, it looked deliberate because they were tangled up trying to get position for the rebound and kobe jerked his elbow back and jammed right into artest to get to the position for a rebound…there’s that jerking motion from kobe’s arm that shows a deliberate elbow.
Stern wants a kobe vs lebron matchup though, so kobe being punished at all is highly unlikely.
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
But your team is the "tough" team so you should
want a physical series. Right?
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was one cheap shot.
we all agree. No cheap fouls. cheap fouls are the ticky tack perimeter fouls the refs called to start the 4th. You should not blame the refs.
With how well your team hits FT’s you should want a tight called game.
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe
clearly intended to throw and elbow back at Artest because he was frustrated with the way they were battling for position. Artest is stronger and Kobe wasn’t happy about it.
Now, I’m not saying he was TRYING to nail Artest in the throat, but it was definitely trying to throw and elbow to clear out room to get the rebound. Either way it was at least a foul on Kobe.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 7, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can agreewith that
but these cries for dirty play, and suspension and technicals are ridiculous.
Kobe was fouled first, yes he threw a elbow. Nothing dirty. definitely chippy.
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that play was definitely dirty....
how can kobe not know how high his elbow was aimed? when you throw your elbow around that high it should be pretty obvious you’re going to catch someone in the face or neck.
Are you going to tell me when you’re throwing elbows you have no control and can’t tell whether you’re aiming for a head, neck or chest?
by big jay on May 7, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Kobe most definitely deliberately threw an elbow back at Artest (though I think it looks like he hit him in the chest, but not the head); and while Artest definitely did foul Kobe first by going over his back while trying to get position, Kobe should have received a tech or a flagrant one for that elbow. But it wasn’t a measured head shot the way Dwight Howard’s was, and as such doesn’t warrant a suspension. It’s probably closer in nature to the foul that Kenyon Martin put on Dirk Howard in Game 1 of the Mavs-Nuggets series than anything.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
based on your assessment
then kobe should be punished the same way kmart was punished
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed again
A fine in the range of $25K and being assessed a flagrant one foul the way K-Mart was would seem totally fair.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll agree with this.
It just seems strange that prior to that play they had been calling ticky tacky fouls to try and get the game back in order and they miss this. I think that’s what set Artest off.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 7, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't blame Artest for being upset
The refs definitely blew that call (maybe they were blocked out from the play or something?), but Ron should have expected to get tossed by reacting the way he did. If he wasn’t Ron Artest then maybe the refs would have cut him some slack, or if the game hadn’t already been getting out of hand then maybe he would have just picked up a T, but in that situation for him to do that, it’s not a surprise he was ejected.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said
I agree but it’s not worth the press it’s getting.
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true but
the rockets dont take cheap shots
you didnt see the blazers complaining last series…and we played the same physical way
there’s a difference between physical and cheap shots – the rockets get a body on the opponents and also according to adelman, they didnt want to foul kobe and put him on the line
the lakers were emotional and just wanted to look tough cuz its not their style of game obviously – but they do shoot the hell outta the ball
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your Rockets are no more physical than the rest.
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
artest
doesnt flop. Either that or very rarely – nor does he complain to pain unless it was quite a hit…if you look at the gif below, for him to hold his neck with that look on his face, says something
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon guys--
Nobody will get suspended, because they would have to suspend Kobe for that jab to the throat. Since the league cannot suspend Kobe, they will all be back for the next game.
Congrats on stealing one in LA, and game two was very competitive—nice!
I like the whole team.
by RenoBlazerFan on May 7, 2009 10:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Throw them 'bows...
Definitely a foul on Kobe, probably should have called a foul on Ron before the board and none of this would have happened…
by decaffeinated on May 7, 2009 10:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Right in the chest
That clip is really quite clear. Artest is fouling Kobe the whole time, so Kobe retaliates with an elbow into Artest’s chest. You can see Kobe’s right arm underneath Ron’s left arm when it hits to see where Kobe connected. Should have been a foul on Artest and then a T or a flagrant one on Kobe for the retaliation elbow.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you watching?
That clearly hits him in the throat. And Ron is not fouling him. It’s one thing to be physcial and put your hands on a guy, but throwing an elbow is different. It wasn’t a foul on Ron – he was battling for position without actually hitting him.
The Dream Shake
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Open your eyes
When Kobe hits him with the elbow look right under Artest’s left armpit and you can pretty clearly see that Kobe’s arm is down. If he’d hit Ron above the shoulders you wouldn’t be able to see his arm at all.
Also, you don’t think there was any foul by Artest first there? He has his forearm in the back of Kobe’s neck. That is clearly an over the back foul. It’s not flagrant or malicious or anything, but you can’t try to get position that way. Kobe retaliated with an elbow which should have got him T’d up at the very least, but Artest definitely fouled him first.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My problem with calling it on the chest...
is that Artest is such a physical guy by nature. I don’t think he would mind being elbowed in the chest that much. I can’t possibly see him making up some business about being elbowed in the neck if he really got hit in the chest.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 7, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He might have been trying to cover his ass for the way he responded
If he hadn’t flipped out and run all over the court like that then I’d be more inclined to agree with you; but considering he kinda made a fool of himself he might be saying that to try to explain why he lost his cool the way he did.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But on the longer replay (the one they've been showing on ESPN)
he clearly turn and tooks to the refs the split second after he gets hit and starts pointing at his throat.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 7, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to ESPN the reverse angle shows it was in the chest
Looks like Kobe will probably be around for Game 3 after all:
On the Bryant-Artest play, the two were battling for rebounding position when Bryant struck Artest with his elbow. Artest immediately began gesturing and arguing that he had been elbowed in the neck, but replays appeared to show Bryant’s elbow striking Artest on his upper chest, just above the “R” on Artest’s Rockets jersey.
Maybe Ron Artest shouldn’t be taken at his word after all.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes according to ESPN
I’d rather see it for myself.
by erod on May 7, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truehoop has the video up
I know fans of other teams love to harp on the NBA’s love affair with the Lakers, but do you really trust your own eyes more than the people who’ve seen this at ESPN? What motive would they have for supporting the Lakers? Be logical, man
by Snoopy2006 on May 7, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Artest pushes down on him in the beginning, which is the only time where Artest could conceivably be called for a foul.
The angle is definitely hard to tell if it was chest or neck. It could be borderline chest. You really need to see from the other side to tell for sure.
by erod on May 7, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
…if anything, I’m going to blame the refs soley for letting this one get out of control. Once Scola and Fisher had their spat, they should have had a short leash for everything. Had they called Artest for leaning on Kobe (which wouldn’t be out of the ordinary, seeing as how they were calling bumps and handchecks the rest of the way), none of the other stuff would have happened and Artest would have be able to stay in the game.
by decaffeinated on May 7, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure Artest know the difference between his chest and his neck.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great...
…now the refs have even less reason to believe anything Artest says in game 3. Sigh.
by decaffeinated on May 7, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By elbowing someone in the neck out of the way?
Come on now
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boxing out is what they were doing before the elbow. Actually it was what Ron was doing. Kobe was just being moved around like a little girl. He ain’t built like Artest.
by erod on May 7, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you have a 255 lb. beast leaning on you.
He was trying to clear space. Not elbow him in the neck.
Man up.
by wondahbap on May 7, 2009 10:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
exactly
kobe, man up and dont elbow someone’s neck to get position – thats just too bad you are smaller
by clutchcity9495 on May 7, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sometimes i wish the NBA
were more than a business headed by David Stern.
I hope all fans realize David Stern will do what he can to make his business succeed. If that means getting Kobe to the finals so adversiting will go nuts, t h an so be it. I wouldnt be suprised if Crawford refs the rest of the series.
If you’re in a big time market, a la Los Angeles, Boston, or NYC, Stern will be favoring you.
by Lima Time on May 7, 2009 10:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Portland fan with you guys
Yo, what’s up Rockets fans. I wish it was my team getting the short end of the officiating, but you all earned that honor. That said, last night was a joke. I’m pulling for you guys. Your team is tough, but at least you’re not dirty.
Go Rockets!
by paniscus on May 7, 2009 11:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, there's a huge difference between tough and dirty. The Lakers are not tough but they
are dirty. I think they learned it from Kobe.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow...Forum Blue and Gold is actually defending the Fisher foul!
“What Fisher did was a team leader saying "Don’t f$*%&$ with my teammates." This is a team sticks up for each other and will push back. There are those that will call this overcompensation, others that at the next loss will pull out the soft card again, but frankly those are people who have not really seen how this team has changed. They are people who do not really have a grasp of this team. That includes LA Times columnists.
• Scola, to his credit, learned a lesson from Brad Miller and put a little extra into it to help sell the flagrant."
Unbelievable.
by erod on May 7, 2009 11:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, not.
Right, because the “basketball analysis” here is so objective.
Hey, the Taliban called and want you to write “unbiased” opinion pieces on the merits and virtues of Taliban rule. Just apply the same logic used in your analysis of game 2.
by Coop21 on May 7, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coop21
i have seen two posts by you, and have lost all respect i could have had.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah you come in here and compare us to the Taliban
and basically say we are puss’s. Nice job having class Coop
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa there
I think you’re going too far there.
If I hurt the feelings of any Houston fans, I apologize. I’m just engaging in some spirited discussions. I didn’t know folks were so sensitive here.
by Coop21 on May 7, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not saying you hurt my feelings or anyone else's
but you didnt add any good commentary. Insults dont add to a blog, they detract. If you want to engage in spirited discussions, talk about basketball please.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so, are you a parody or something?
by Only_A_Lad on May 7, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lakers fans have no class- see Coop21 for proof.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, because trolls speak for an entire fan base
Face it, there are trolls and intelligent fans in every fan base. There are tons of Rockets trolls on other blogs (do they represent you?), and yet I’ve seen some highly intelligent posts here. It’s called reality.
by Snoopy2006 on May 7, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Snoopy, they don't represent me. As a matter of fact I live in LA and am sick
and tired of the same Kobe bullshi* all the time. Sorry you homers can’t see the favoritism when it’s in your own arena. Too bad. As far as Lakers fans having class, well, I can only draw from personal experience and say NO.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
“he put a little extra effort into it to help sell the flagrant”
Were you watching the same game I was? Because your aging has been point guard leveled Scola with a huge cheap shot that he never saw coming. How could he put extra effort into something that he was unaware of? Your coach probably just took the least needed player on the roster and told him to “foul someone real hard to give the team a jolt so that we can win this game”.
Not really a surprise coming from the Lakers.
by Rocke on May 7, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Panties
I didn’t know they passed out man panties in Houston (then again, you may have borrowed them form the Portland fans).
by Coop21 on May 7, 2009 11:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course we get passed out panties....
They are from the Lakers Cheerleaders and chicks from LA. They love Texas boys.
by erod on May 7, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
Texas girls prefer Cali boys.
by Coop21 on May 7, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And theres more Cali girls
than Texas girls. so in my mind texas boys win out
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really...
You can’t steal my comeback…I might have to elbow you in the throat now.
by erod on May 7, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough...
but you’ll probably just hit me in the chest.
by Coop21 on May 7, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted a Fanshot video of TNT's postgame
In case you need a refresher.
by levelhed on May 7, 2009 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Laker fans who think it wasnt to the neck...
Both your laker lover J.A. Adande and Jalen Rose have said that the elbow connected above the shoulders. They are the “least biased” of all of us, and they agree with the Rockets fans.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point
You guys can’t refute facts.
Check out nickandroll.blogspot.com
by n1ck34 on May 7, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Henry Abbott, who has no love lost for the Lakers, seems to think otherwise
He has a pretty reasonable breakdown on Truehoop, even admitting that it’s impossible to be certain.
Can we all agree that it’s pretty hard to tell and move on?
by Snoopy2006 on May 7, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've said it many times
He threw a ridiculous high elbow, doesn’t really matter if he hit his throat or the very upper part of his chest. It was malicious and pathetic
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless, this whole situation benefits the Rockets
Assuming the Lakers weren’t really on their game in Game 1, this will help us. All the Lakers had to do to win this series is keep the status quo. Now they have pissed off the Rockets. So long as we partially keep our cool, we will feed off of this
Check out nickandroll.blogspot.com
by n1ck34 on May 7, 2009 11:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Judging by last night I don't think Houston will keep its cool
Von Wafer has a tantrum on the sidelines and gets thrown out by the coach and then Ron Artest goes crazy on the floor. Not a whole lot of composure on display last night. Riling Houston up like this is probably just what the Lakers want. It seemed to work pretty well last night.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't see how this benefitted us
considering if those incidents hadn’t occurred that there was a very good chance that the rockets would be up 2-0 right now.
by big jay on May 7, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe AND Fisher should both be suspended next game. It’s right fricken there to see in plain view. The NBA better do the right thing, damnit! I get so sick of seeing those damn Kobe Lebron water commercials and you know Stern gets a hard on when he sees them.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 7, 2009 11:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Off Topic - Manny was just suspended 50 games for testing pos. for PED's!
What a way to go after just tying the major league mark for consecutive home wins to start a season. Go L.A. – where class rules.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 11:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, thats just redonkulous! THINK, Manny! THINK!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 7, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently it wasnt steroids
but its still pretty embarrassing. Manny and Boras say it was something prescribed by a doctor for a medical issue. Take what you want from that.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see.
I was about to say…
Roiding with a beer belly? Thats new! lmao!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 7, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that depends on your definition of "Class"
“Texas just earned the dubious distinction of having the largest prison population in the country (163,190), surpassing the prison population of California (163,067), which has 13 million more citizens than Texas. The Lone Star State has more than 700,000 of its citizens (1 out of every 20) under criminal justice control.”
To be clear, Manny broke the rules and the suspension is 100% warranted. Not to talk about baseball here, but I’m glad the suspension happened….steroid abuse and the league turning a blind eye to same has ruined baseball.
by Coop21 on May 7, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So because we have the land space to actually house our criminals that makes us bad?
WTF?
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's because we don't take any shit in Texas.
Don’t mess with Texas.
by texasag on May 7, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lakers=team of thugs....
Proud member of Duck nation!
by skywaker9 on May 7, 2009 12:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Update from Truehoop
UPDATE: ESPN’s Chris Sheridan has seen the reverse-angle footage that doesn’t seem to be online, and writes:
On the Bryant-Artest play, the two were battling for rebounding position when Bryant struck Artest with his elbow. Artest immediately began gesturing and arguing that he had been elbowed in the neck, but replays appeared to show Bryant’s elbow striking Artest on his upper chest, just above the “R” on Artest’s Rockets jersey.
While he may be assigned a retroactive flagrant or somesuch — he did throw an elbow — I’m now thinking that there is zero chance Kobe Bryant will be suspended for Game 3.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 12:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Then maybe someone else should show us said reverse angle
And frankly, I don’t care if it was his neck or his chest. Throwing elbows like that is bush league
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
but the league rulebook clearly differentiates between the two areas. Hence the debate. It’s not really a matter of personal morals…
by Snoopy2006 on May 7, 2009 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We all knew Kobe wasn't getting suspended, that's why I don't understand the semantics
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look for yourself!
I watched the video too… Who ever said “Just above the R is full of it.” Looked like it landed between the adam’s apple and where the clavicals meet.
by 34forDreaming on May 8, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me see, if it's above the letters, high on his chest, but just below the neck, that would make it
the collarbone. Anyone ever been hit in the colorbone? Or broken it? Frankly, if you get hit real hard right there it’s just like hitting the neck. Pardon Artest if he said neck when it was probably the collorbone.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mabybe its just me
But I don’t think Artest is the kind of guy who randomly clutches at his throat in order to get a foul call.
by natrix964909 on May 7, 2009 12:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's simple, Ron can dish it out but can't take it.
by Coop21 on May 7, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya, because that's totally the history
Stop and think before you type
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty simple. Imagine if it had been reversed and Artest elbowed kobe. The
issue wouldn’t be if he’d be suspended or not, it would be how many games would he be suspended for.
by eastie Rich on May 7, 2009 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
QFT!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 7, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look how happy Joe is in the picture...
Do you think he walks around saying, “Hey Kobe, Shane said he owns you.” Or, “Pst, Ron, Kobe said your momma is a ho.” “Derek… Yo Derek! Hey, Scola said you’re a midget…. Yup, then he said you smell bad…”
by 34forDreaming on May 7, 2009 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw the baseline angle replay and kobe should NOT BE SUSPENDED.
I hate kobe just as much as every other rockets fan here. But the replay from the baseline that ESPN just showed shows kobe’s elbow connecting with Ron’s chest.
It was a dirty ass play, but kobe got lucky Ron was pushing him down and kobe couldnt get his elbow higher.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 12:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's better that way
What good is beating the Lakers if they have to be missing their MVP for you to do so? You wanna see the players decide the outcome on the court, you don’t wanna see the league offices deciding it 3000 miles away in an office somewhere.
by WildYams on May 7, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clearly an elbow to Ron's chest
In addition, nobody has even mentioned that if Kobe had elbowed Ron in the throat, Ron wouldn’t have been able to use his voice box. The reason Ron tried to sell the elbow to the throat was because he was trying to deke the refs into throwing Kobe out of the game. Veteran move on Ron’s part, but the meltdown after his ploy didn’t work definitely hurt his team. Also, 10-1 Fish gets suspended. He clearly measured Scola for the shoulder hit. What Fish did still wasn’t as bad as punching someone in the face with two seconds left in the game, but just because Rondo got off doesn’t mean Fish should. Two wrongs don’t make a right, even if the Rondo non-suspension set an ugly precedent.
by The Dude Abides on May 7, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ARTEST IS SOOOOOO DIRTY!!!!!!
I can’t believe you people. Artest openly and blatantly attacked Kobe last night.
He ran in there and attacked Kobe with his throat. That viscious throat attack could have seriously injured Kobe’s elbow. I think all rockets fans can be lucky it wasn’t an immediate flagrant 2.
by texasag on May 7, 2009 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And Battier....
Don’t get me started on that brutal face attack Battier had on Kobe’s knee in game 1.
by texasag on May 7, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't touch Kobe
Let him touch you
Chill out Rockets, fan. This is a fun series!
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah .....
the Rockets have been playing flat out dirty so far in this series. I sure hope Kobe’s elbow is o.k., because I’m sure Ron’s throat is very hard. The Lakers surely don’t want their star player who scored almost 40 percent of their total points to be hurt. I mean who else on the Lakers would actually play offense? It so much easier standing around and watching Kobe do all the work.
And on a side note, I was very pleased with Kobe’s technical last night. I guess the ref’s finally had enough of his " I am the best, and nobody can guard me crap". If you are so good, just shut the hell up and play basketball.
by Rocke on May 7, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ending comment: http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-31/The-Kobe-Bryant-Suspension-Watch.html
Second video, alternative angle, clearly under the shoulders. Most likely retroactive flagrant for Kobe, Fisher suspended. Artest nothing. Bring on game 3.
by Fundefined on May 7, 2009 3:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it looks like the chest from the different angle
It looks like it hit his chest. No suspension for Kobe probably.
by erod on May 7, 2009 3:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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