A second look at Ron Artest's verbal retaliation
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 5:45 PM CDT
in Random Commentary
200 comments
As expected, the NBA dished out penalties for the events of Game 2 in Los Angeles last night. Derek Fisher was suspended for one game for knocking Luis Scola to the floor with an elbow. Additionally, Kobe Bryant was assessed a flagrant one foul for elbowing Ron Artest. Though the results disagree with what I wrote this morning, I am not at all surprised.
Fisher's elbow certainly deserved a suspension. The phrase, "There are hard fouls, and then there are cheap shots..." has been worn down to a thread, but it still rings true. Though contact was not made above Scola's shoulders, it was Fisher's intent that made the suspension necessary. Good call by the NBA.
As for the Bryant play, the league has the best replay, assuming there is one camera view that few others saw. ESPN.com's Chris Sheridan said that he viewed a replay that indicated that Bryant's elbow was in Ron's upper chest area. If that is indeed what the NBA saw, then the flagrant one is the right call, period. There were disagreements this morning as to what really took place, but now that it's been resolved, we can leave the Lakers alone. I think we've all expressed our opinions on the matter quite thoroughly.
However, I am still confused by Ron Artest's actions. If Kobe did not elbow Artest in the throat, then what kind of show was Crazy Pills putting on for everyone?
Ron, you got some splainin' to do.
I'm all for standing tall and not backing down. We know that Ron isn't afraid to fend for himself either. But did he have a legitimate reason to take his argument to that high of a level? Did he have to get in Kobe's face and effectively eject himself? Because if what the NBA says is true, that Kobe's elbow was merely to the chest, then Ron's retaliation wasn't worth it. The outcome of the game was not yet decided. That is, of course, until number 96 left the floor.
Making a statement to Kobe is important - I will agree with that. But could it have been done by someone of lesser value to our team? Losing Ron affected us more than a few strong words could ever affect Bryant.
There are certain cheap shots that Kobe could have taken to make Ron's display worth carrying out. An elbow to or near the face; a punch or kick to the midsection; anything blatantly cheap and non-basketball-like. I think an elbow to the stomach during a box-out falls slightly below the others. It was one thing for Ron to plead his case to the officials. But it was quite another for him to get in Kobe's face amidst an already heated atmosphere. It just brings up old memories that we all thought Ron had moved on from.
By over-reacting to the play, Artest put a personal vendetta over his team. Remember when he and Kobe were jawing in Houston way back when? It was the night that Kobe took the game over and made Artest look like a fool. Each time down the court, there was Ron, continuing to talk trash to Kobe even while Bryant was scoring at will. Bryant got in Ron's head, and instead of playing through it, Artest took it personally, and it hurt his team. If that game was the reason for Ron's extended reaction to last night's elbow, then shame on him.
Artest must get his priorities straight heading into Game 3. I have the utmost confidence in him, as long as he keeps his head in line. He is saying all the right things - now he has to do them.
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I think he did the right thing
He showed Kobe that he wasn’t going to take his shit. And, hopefully, that will keep Kobe from cheap-shotting the Rockets in the future. If nothing else, it brought it to the forefront, and the refs will be looking out for it now.
As for the location of the elbow, it damn sure looked like it was neck-level to me.
by Only_A_Lad on May 7, 2009 5:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I think kobe did it intentionally to get a reaction out of artest. and i’m surprised he didn’t react more strongly.
I’m surprised houston fans aren’t sighing a collective sigh of relief that he didn’t do more!
Put yourself where RonRon is and what he saw go down with Scola, with Battier, and now Bryant’s trying to punk him? I’m surprised he didn’t find his own table leg. As a non-rockets (Blazers) fan, I can tell you we’re all shocked that he didn’t do more and have great respect for Ron. His interviews lately-he’s shown a lot more maturity than I saw from him early in his career.
And I see his point. He didn’t think he was gonna get ejected, he figured for that, he would get a technical and he was alright with that. Given the atmosphere, he shoulda known better though.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
by nima on May 7, 2009 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Tom
He may not have chosen at the moment he went after Kobe that he was going to get ejected but as soon as he made the throat slashing gesture, that was it. That’s a no-no. I think Crazy pills originally was just going to get a technical and yell at Kobe but his instincts kicked in and he made the throat-slashing. Sigh.
by yao_the_great on May 7, 2009 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yao the great are you serious!
You already came with that bullshit trash talking artest on the laker blog and even the laker fans told you it wasen’t a throat slashing sigh. Talk your bullshit over there!
by HTOWNCYPRESSBOY on May 7, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Artest is fine now
He plays with his brain more than ever before.
I think he finally realized he doesn’t have to do anything, cause he knows he would destroy, I MEAN BREAK EVER FUCKING BONE IN HIS SMUG ASS BODY, if he was forced to. Along with anyone else trying to help kobe.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is, by reactiing emotionally....
he got himself ejected from the game when the Rockets needed him the most. I’d much rather he keep his cool and be in the rest of the game, so the Rockets had a chance of winning. Once he was gone, it was all but over. Sure Kobe pissed him off. But if all the Lakers have to do to beat the Rockets is make Artest mad cause they know he can’t keep his cool and will get ejected, then they’ll always have someone doing cheap shots on him. It’s not about who’s right or who’s wrong, it’s about winning when it’s all said and done. Funny cause I’ve had more anger on Joey Crawford’s horrible job and the fact that the NBA refuses to acknowledge it.
by osa1011 on May 8, 2009 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Ron's elbow??
How come no one is not saying anything about the location of Ron’s elbow and fore arm to Kobe’s neck? Is that not above the shoulder area? Is he not pushing and putting force into it? Is he not fighting for position at the same time as Kobe? All of you say that Kobe should have been suspended, well does not not go the same for Ron?
by dstm4 on May 8, 2009 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Touching and hitting are two different things
Having an elbow ontop of someones shoulder is very different than throwing it into someone’s shoulder.
Had artest given Kobe an elbow drop on the shoulder, Kobe would be hospitalized and Artest would be suspended.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The rockets are dysfunctional and
done for the season. What a shame Rick Adelman is stuck with such a bunch of misfits and losers.
by Lakers Rule on May 8, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Done with your tired act
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 8, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Kobe got him in the hollow at the base of the throat
Which would explain why there was so much controversy over the “above the shoulders or not” elbow.
It’s because that location is right on the borderline.
You don’t have to believe me, but it best explains why so many people seeing the same thing came to such different conclusions.
You have to admit, it was close, or else there wouldn’t have been so much arguing about where Ron got hit.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 5:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well
it was close. But the reason why there was so much argument over location was because we only had one crappy camera angle most of the day. The new one helps, but not much. It’s borderline, but I still think it’s malicious.
by Only_A_Lad on May 7, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I really didn't make my mind up on that
until this afternoon. It’s a tough call.
by Only_A_Lad on May 7, 2009 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
The Dream Shake
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe's elbow in Ron's Throat....
It was not merely at his chest… the top of the elbow is into Ron’s throat.
by Rocket's Red Glare on May 7, 2009 5:57 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I know Kobe is the league's pretty boy
But I can’t see the NBA missing that call with all of the replay that they could look at. Even in that image, Kobe hasn’t made contact with Ron, as his elbow is still going backward. Like Sheridan said, it probably hit Artest right above the "R" on his jersey.
I really, really hate to support the Lakers’ case on this, but there is a lot of evidence in their favor.
The Dream Shake
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could have slipped up. Plus, that is basically his neck area right at the top of his chest
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is, Ron's not making anything up
I don’t understand why anyone would insinuate that
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he is making anything up either
He did get hit in the throat, it just depends if it was the higher section of the throat, or the lower.
And the only reason the distinction is important is because of Stern’s language about elbows “above the shoulder”.
I’m only addressing that language, not malicious intent or any other legitimate complaints.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I am not saying that he is making it up
Only saying that he over-reacted.
The Dream Shake
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to say
Yes, he did react strongly (too much, because he got the tech) but then if he didn’t react he would have lost his edge. That’s why he was compelled to let Kobe know he did not approve at all.
I think the first confrontation was sufficient. When Crawford separated him and Kobe, Artest should have stopped the gesturing. The message was already delivered.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, that's fair, I think I read more into what you wrote than you actually wrote
But I don’t think he overreacted, it was thought through. And he’s right, he shouldn’t have been ejected. Again, I solely put that on Joey Crawford’s shoulders. He saw what was going to happen and instead of stepping in before Artest got there he waited for Artest to get in Kobe’s face and stay there.
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 7, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time believing Ron was making it up
I don’t think that Ron would have reacted the way he did if it wasn’t a throat shot. With that in mind, I sincerely believe that his reaction was appropriate to the situation. I’ve watched the play over and over (thank you DVR & HDTV!) and he seemed to be upset but totally in control; with everything else that had been going on since the series began (see Shane Battier in game1), someone needed to stand up to kobe and tell him we’re not going to take that sh*t!
by slothy420 on May 8, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can't...
Ron Artest over-reacting would be burning down Kobe’s house with his wife and kids tied up inside. I think Ron stayed calm for being, you know, Ron Artest.
Life is hilarious.
by SolGoode on May 7, 2009 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's all a bit of hair splitting.
If he grazed Artest’s chin, is that above the shoulder?
Where does your shoulder begin in the neck area, top of the should, or does it go with the collar bone?
What if part of his elbow was above the shoulder?
Above the shoulder when the elbow is launched?
Yes, we can have a real semantic field day here.
But the rule has to be something, and this is what it is, and the action taken seems appropriate to me.
Go to the light. Go to the light...
by Xiane on May 7, 2009 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree w/ Tom.
Though the league tends to reward talented players in unfair and mysterious ways, there’s no way the league wouldn’t have called it an elbow to the chest if it wasn’t one, not with a few billion Chinese players’ fans in China who routinely root for the rockets watching.
by yao_the_great on May 7, 2009 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and where is artests arm?
Right across Kobe’s head snapping it back is where.
He gave Kobe a forearm across the back of the head and pushed him half way across the lane prior to the shot, then pushed him down towards the ground then elbopwed Kobe in the head. Good grief.
by Lakers Rule on May 8, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron you are doing great way better than that McGrady bum could do!! Keep it up and work out a contract for next year with Houston. Houston is your home away from home and we all love ya here in Houston!!!!
by kilershark on May 7, 2009 6:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't just that play
I think the reason Ron went off was because of the repeated cheap shots. It wasn’t necessarily this one play, but more that he’s been doing it all series and it isn’t getting called. On the most flagrant of all of them (neck, upper chest, whatever), Ron gets the whistle instead. I could see how that would finally set someone off.
I get that he should recognize the situation, but like he said, he didn’t think his actions merited an ejection and only wanted to get a tech. You’d rather he go Shane’s route, but I’m not all that worked up with how Ron responded there. I’d have a hard time holding back my frustration.
by WakePhil on May 7, 2009 6:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i would be frustrated too. but there is a line to draw somewhere
The Dream Shake
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a regular situation it would have just been a tech but this was right after the Derek Fisher nonsense so the refs were ready to blow and throw at any misbehavior.. Ron should have known better.
by Fundefined on May 7, 2009 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
And I’m not saying the ejection was the wrong call, but Kobe was sending a message with that elbow. Whether he got him in the neck or not, he was aiming high with it. You are dealing with a bunch of hyper competitive people in a pressure cooked atmosphere, shaking off that frustration is much easier said than done.
He was sticking up for himself, his teammates, and he drew a lot more attention to Kobe’s elbow than there would have been. Hopefully it has the league paying closer attention to Kobe going forward. There will be less tolerance for moves like the one he pulled on Shane.
by WakePhil on May 7, 2009 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shane is a different breed
There is not another player in the NBA with his mentality. NOT ONE.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I saw the replay from the baseline
and it was below the chest. I think it was intentional and was high, which is why he got the flagrant one, but was not in the throat.
I think Ron “overreacted” because it was so close to his throat. Ron is a defensive guy and was defending himself. Was it called for, probably not. But it does send a message to kobe to watch what he does. Someone on SS&R made a great point that if he was hit in the throat with an elbow, he probably wouldnt have been able to speak or catch his breath for a little while, but that wasnt the case. Ron immediately ran to the ref and argued and then ran to kobe. Not the typical symptoms of someone who just got elbowed in the throat.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 6:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
do you not see the picture i post? how much higher does Kobe’s elbow need to get? its already above Ron’s entire jersey… well above the “R” on his chest like stated in other posts. The reason Kobe’s elbow can’t get any higher is because its already tucked underneath Ron’s chin striking at his throat. My screenshot of the clip clearly shows this… if you are watching the clip without pause, it will look like one fluid motion like Kobe trying to brush Ron off. But people seem to be getting confused by the point of impact since they were tugging each other for many seconds. Also… even if you disagree with Ron stepping up to Kobe for the elbow, the reason he called Kobe out included all the cheap shot Kobe took at Shane too… and even at Yao’s knee, even though that may seem like it’s not intentional.
by Rocket's Red Glare on May 7, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your image is right before the hit. the elbow isn’t hitting yet. It’s close and above the R but below the neck.
by Fundefined on May 7, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not much better, the video isn’t very high quality but I think it shows a pretty good motion that the elbow was below the neck. I know Artest is tough but you don’t walk off an elbow to the throat.
by Fundefined on May 7, 2009 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said… the hit to his throat was one FLUID motion, my picture showed the actually point of impact of Kobe’s elbow. This picture shows his elbow sliding downwards after the hit to Ron’s throat. Notice in my picture Kobe’s shoes were higher up off the floor, and in this one they are closer to being flat on the floor, such is the case of a downward motion (or downward swing). Kobe hit Ron’s throat first, then the elbow slid down to his chest making the impression that it was only Ron’s chest that got hit. This screenshot was probably less than a second after my picture showing the elbow shot.
by Rocket's Red Glare on May 7, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s a very farfetched conclusion from a low quality video. elbows don’t slide off throats for one, considering the fact there the throat is very soft target. Also the elbow as you said was delivered from the top, it’s not likely a blow from above hits someone’s throat and not their chin first. The more likely hit of impact was the upper chest. Again the fact that it’s not a decisive blow makes it a flagrant one in comparison to Howard’s elbow which was very clear and not a basketball play.
by Fundefined on May 7, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying that it warranted a suspension on Kobe, I am just defending Artest to those people who say he overreacted/ over-exaggerated on Kobe actually hitting his throat. I trust Artest felt what he did and would not blow it out of proportion, considering the multiple cheap shots Kobe had in both games of the series already. This one finally made Artest confront Kobe and tell him to settle down.
by Rocket's Red Glare on May 7, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly my point - Ron is not lying.
Guess I didn’t emphasize the “over-reaction” part of it.
The Dream Shake
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on May 7, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your analysis is right
The pic posted here is not clear enough; I think Kobe’s elbow is still away from Ron and in more of a downward trajectory. Ron didn’t get fired up because he was hurt (at all), but because he got the wrong end of the foul. Kobe did swing the elbow and was rightly called for the flagrant after the fact, but seriously, there were probably harder legal blows delivered in this game from players fighting for position.
by levelhed on May 7, 2009 6:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
But with Ron it was about the principle
Of not allowing Kobe to throw high elbows, not that it hurt so much.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PATHETIC
Do any lakers fans find it sad about how hard you have to argue the physics of a throat attack.
I have never met more martial arts experts in my life. I guess I should stay out of LA. I have heard arguements of the way the elbow would slide of the throat, where the throat begins, etc.
Face it, he is Kobe, it was intentional, it wasn’t aimed at the throat only at artest, HE GOT A FUCKING FLAGRANT FOUL. They don’t give flagrants unless there was something really shady going on there. A clear and open shot to the chest would not get a flagrant foul, but a questionable shot sure as hell would.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He overreacted
Whether Kobe elbowed him is irrelevant. Ron lost his mind temporarily and he should know that the rules are tighter for him. He can’t go over to Kobe like that while the game is still in doubt. The Rockets had a chance to win the game.
Ron’s gotta settle down and speak with his game.
Bork bork bork!
by Avinash on May 7, 2009 7:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Overreacted???
He did a genious thing. Do you think Kobe will get away with his dirty stuff next game. Expect your golden boy to be in foul trouble now.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ron never gets a break, huh?
I'll snap yo neck like a twig if you sass me again. . .
by Duhoh on May 7, 2009 7:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe it is time for us (all of us) to move on
It seems most of us agree on the fact that Fisher deserved the suspension he got, and Kobe’s elbow was not worthy of a suspension (if those goddamn senile idiots called a tech on the spot it wouldn’t have gotten this bad). Sure Ron got the short end of the stick, but he could have handled the situation better especially because our chances at winning that game got ejected along with him. I was definitely proud of the way Battier handled himself with Kobe’s taunts, it really showed the media the difference in class between the two. Battier even went so far as to praise Kobe’s performance, rather than firing back at him as many would have. He did his team + fans proud.
As for Wafer, I was really surprised that he (purportedly) threw a water bottle in Adelman’s direction. Our “feel good story of the year” should have known better than to pull a stunt like that on national TV. If the reports are true, then Wafer really needs to get his head straight and buy into Adelman’s game plan.
I’m not too worried about cheapshots in the next two games since the Laker’s really don’t have the galls to pull anything like that away from home (see: mob lynching), and I know the Rockets won’t resort to acting “tough” in that manner, but I wouldn’t say no to a couple of hard fouls. For the sake of all Rockets fans… I’m hoping we finally get some announcers who aren’t on the Laker’s payroll/loveboat for the next two games. I expect the Rockets to show the Laker’s what real toughness looks like at home.
P.S. somebody tell Odom that a guy shooting 48% from the charity stripe in the playoffs should keep his mouth shut.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 7, 2009 8:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Trash talking IS NOT classless
Kobe’s trash talking IS ALLOWED. This is the Playoffs where STORIES occur, legacies are submitted, history is made. Michael Jordan and Larry Bird are some of the worst trash talkers of ALL TIME and they are remembered as GREAT players and not CLASSLESS ones..
If someone trash talks and says “He can’t guard me”, GUARD HIM and SHUT HIM DOWN. It is that simple.. A lot has been made in a host of articles about Battier being the Kobe-stopper and Kobe only strives to refute that statement. Kobe is shooting OVER 55% while being guarded by Battier for the season. Playoffs and Regular season
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a difference. Usually trash talking against nasty players is the norm for someone like MJ
Shane is a boy scout, and plays a clean, well-thought out game. He is never out of control, speaks highly of Kobe, a student of the game, and never trash talks. He is a consummate professional. It is a fact that Kobe is pestered by Shane’s defense, and that is all Shane attempts to do.
The fact that Kobe had to taunt someone like Shane Battier reflects poorly on him, and when the jumpers are falling, Kobe can taunt. But, Shane also makes Kobe shoot 30 shots to get 30 points, and the Lakers lose – as it happened in game #1.
So, I very much doubt that history will be made by Kobe taunting someone like Shane Battier.
Kari
by Kari on May 7, 2009 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You aren’t getting the point. “HE CAN’T GUARD ME” is referenced to Michael Lewis and Daryl Morey in particular. Of course Shane does a great job of making things hard for Kobe but no, he isn’t a kobe stopper as Daryl Morey professed. Nothing against Shane from Kobe there
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well then why was kobe saying
“you cant guard me” to shane. He was looking at shane plenty of times when he said “he cant guard me” or “you cant guard me.” The fact is that Kobe KNOWS Shane can guard him. Thats why Kobe tries so hard against Shane. Thats why kobe taunts shane and morey and lewis. kobe knows that if he doesnt give 110% against shane every play, like shane does against kobe, then he will struggle.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but when he gives 110% against Shane and Shane gives 110% against him, WHAT HAPPENS?
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe made some amazing shots
but his shooting probably wont continue to be that good throughout the rest of the series. Its the law of averages. When you have a hand in your face every single shot you are going to have a bad game or two no matter who you are. Kobe working 110% and Shane working 110% is better for the Rockets than for the lakers. The Rockets have another guy they can put on Kobe, the Lakers dont have another Kobe. The lakers need kobe on defense more than the Rockets need Shane on offense. throughout a 7 game series, it will take a toll on kobe.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I don’t care how hard Shane or Artest works on defense, If Kobe is fired up by what I think would be a very rowdy crowd at the Toyota Center, 20 fingers to the face wouldn’t do anything. He would find a way to be productive even if he has to act as a decoy for another Laker not named Gasol to have a big game
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Respectfully, I disagree.
The purpose of Shane is to make it possible for the Rockets to have a chance to win the game by making Kobe a volume shooter, and making him work very hard for his points. By that measure, he has guarded him well, and the series score now stands at 1-1. He has been successful 50% – a statistical tie.
The point that I am making is this. Kobe can get his points against Shane, but in the process of making Kobe do so, Daryl/Lewis believe that the Lakers are more likely to lose. So, Kobe is simply making this about himself, whereas Shane/Lewis/Daryl are concerned about their team winning.
Rockets have less talent on the floor than Kobe/Gasol/Odom. The only measure of Kobe is if he wins this series, not how many points he gets against Shane. In fact, Shane would love for Kobe to get 30 points every night if that means that the Rockets have a better chance to win. It is as simple as that.
Kari
by Kari on May 7, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. Shane is very classy, and especially with what he had to go through in game 1,
I’d expect Kobe to be nice to him. Everyone has a right to trash talk in the game, I don’t care if you do, but it doesn’t mean that you should. What I admire about players like Yao and Lebron is that they’re so great yet they don’t trash talk.
by yao_the_great on May 7, 2009 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, Lebron trash talks
Believe that.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really know where to start
First of all, I didn’t use the phrase “trash talking” anywhere in my post. Taunting is different from trash talking just the same as flopping is not the same thing as “selling a call”. Many players do trash talk with each other, during dead balls and before/after games. Kobe screaming “YOU CAN’T STOP ME” to doug collins, marv albert, his entire team, and the entire rockets team after every made shot is not something any legend has done (go watch your NBA classics). It only served to confirm the fact that Kobe is not a good sportsman, but he didn’t break any rules. It was when he started screaming in Battier’s face that he got T-ed because you can’t taunt at another player (Mutumbo would always wag at the crowd not at the guy on the floor).
Second point, I don’t remember anybody on this site saying that Battier could “shut down” Kobe. We all concede that Kobe is the most talented offensive player in the league right now, even Shane said publicly that he doesn’t expect to shut him down. He’s doing his best to force Kobe into tough shots, and he has produced results (see: game one). With all the respect Shane has given Kobe in the media and in games, it is extremely disappointing to see Kobe respond with elbows and taunts. Taunting somebody who never gave you anything but deep respect is ridiculously immature. It is this sort of behavior that will stain Kobe’s so called legacy. For all his faults, Jordan never pulled a stunt like this. This is what will always separate Kobe from the legends – maturity.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 7, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of, it was “HE CAN’T GUARD ME” and not “YOU CAN’T STOP ME”
And the ‘HE CAN’T GUARD ME" are for Michael Lewis and Daryl Morey and every other person in the world that labels Battier a “KOBE STOPPER”. “YOU CAN’T STOP ME” would be for Battier but that is not what he said
Could Kobe’s Game 1 sub par performance be because of a host of factors like rust and illness? or just Kobe missing shots (although he shot 45.2%). Who knows.. Take that game out of it and Kobe is at about 60% FG shooting against Battier and Artest
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Kobe must have said
“you cant guard me” to Shane when he recieved the T. He was looking at Shane when he said it. I dont think kobe is dumb enough to say “he cant guard me” to shane when he is referring to shane.
But really you have no idea what Kobe was saying most of the time. Yeah for sure some of the time he was saying “he cant guard me” but you cant see his lips every time. He could have said alot worse but none of us will ever know.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe can say whatever he wants, who cares. Everyone should just shut up and play ball
like Yao Ming, but nobody ever does. Trash talking has become a part of basketball, and as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone, I don’t care if it exists.
by yao_the_great on May 7, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great. Shane should GUARD HIM and basketball should continue being played. The better team would win
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
guarding is what Shane has been doing all series
Kobe can say whatever he wants, but Shane isn’t gonna break down.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 7, 2009 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
by Emeka on May 8, 2009 1:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is that exactly?
He destroyed Kobe in Game 1. Points be damned, he made Kobe not involve his teammates. In Game 2 he guarded him EXTREMELY well, Kobe just hit his shots anyway. No one is saying that Shane is a better defender than Kobe is an offensive player. But Shane is the best defender of Kobe in the league and that’s inarguable
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 8, 2009 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not by a rational person
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 8, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe had an off game
Much like 95% of the other people Battier guards. They all have off days.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please refer
I looked at all the teams the Lakers played against 4 times this season.
Kobe shot 53% with 6.3 free throws attempted against Houston.
Kobe shot 44% with 6 free throws attempted against Golden State.
Why doesn’t Stephen Jackson get the reputation for being a Kobe Stopper?
I’m not saying Shane isn’t a great defender, he obviously does well against other, but his effect on Kobe Bryant is questionable, as evidenced by his poor performance against certain other teams as well. It could just be Kobe that is off, unless you do think those other teams play better D on Kobe, in which case then, they play better D than the Rockets do on him.
But I’m only using FG% and FTAs as my guide, I know there are other things associated with good defense.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's one season, not a career
And NOBODY is a “Kobe stopper”, but Shane did indeed stop Kobe in Game 1
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on May 8, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
14-31
That is not stoppage.
It’s below par for Kobe, but it’s stil 14-31, and that was with 1-7 3pt FGs.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cmon
I don’t have the resources to get all the Kobe-Shane matchups, but it’s not much different.
We can even go back to Shane’s Memphis days.
Ok fine, I’ll get numbers from Memphis. Sigh. So much work to do.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yao Ming doesnt talk trash
because nobody would be able to understand him. Now if he talked trash in chinese that would be sweet!!
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 8, 2009 2:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t be like a baby
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 8, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be awesome
And I’m with the “Everybody should shut up and play ball” camp.
by illcowboy on May 8, 2009 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish he talked trash
Imagine what would happen if Yao got fired up?
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's odd
Because neither Lewis nor Morey said that Battier couldn’t guard Kobe. All they’ve said is that Battier does a very good job of making Kobe take extra shots to get the same amount of points. Those extra shots, then, are opportunities that other players don’t have to contribute and, since there are a finite number of shots to be taken in any given game, a hindrance to the team.
That’s what the article was about. No one has ever said that Battier can lock Kobe down, because nobody, including Battier, Lewis and Morey, thinks that. If Kobe chooses to interpret it that way then he is intentionally misconstruing the article for motivational purposes (which is what I would do as well).
When I'm on the mic, I'm like global warming, you can't ignore me.
by tehGrindCrusher on May 8, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Learn your NBA History
Kobe screaming "YOU CAN’T STOP ME" to doug collins, marv albert, his entire team, and the entire rockets team after every made shot is not something any legend has done (go watch your NBA classics).
You are aware that Larry Legend Bird famously taunted the classiest of the classiest, Julius Erving, so much so that Dr. J choked the shit out of Bird?
Before you start trying to place Kobe below the Legends for his “immaturity”, learn your NBA history.
They are littered with stories of “Legends” taunting and talking trash.
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok thats one
can you name another?
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 7, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "He Can't Guard Me" act is taken straight out of the book of Michael Jordan.
by airchina23 on May 7, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea I realized my original word choice was bad
So I rephrased it.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 7, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I just saw your reply below.
I agree with you on that. But I guess it’s a personal preference, I’ve been playing organized ball all my life and I don’t mind the taunting and trash-talking on the court. I admit I do that myself in competitive situations. Kobe’s backed up his trash talking for the most part. I mean, Shane did get abused, and it had nothing to do with his defense. But when Kobe resorts to the elbow, that’s a big no-no. 80’s playoffs style my ass, MJ got gang-raped by the Detroit Bad Boys but he didn’t throw any bows. He got hacked hard by the Knicks in ‘92 but he didn’t hack back. It’s just unprofessional, unethical, and Kobe is really lucky that Ron Artest is a changed man. Imagine this happening in 2004?
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man paramedics would be all over the place
But I guess my point was that Kobe doesn’t respect anybody, and I just think that its extremely pretentious of him to dismiss one of the best perimeter defenders in the league just because he had a few great games against him.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 8, 2009 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that is just naive
MJ never threw ’bows?
MJ throws elbows against recreational players!
John Gilchrist discovered the true meaning of intensity while competing with top college players during a weeklong camp in Santa Barbara, Calif., in July.
“I was going through the lane, and I get this tough jab in my side, and it’s Michael Jordan,” Gilchrist said. “It shocked me. He was in a zone. It was like Game7 of the NBA Finals in a pickup game.”
This is futile because I’m not even saying that Kobe is “classy” on the court, but it’s naive that you think the greats were above that type of behavior.
Don’t forget too, that MJ threw a punch at this own teammate, Steve Kerr, during a Bulls practice.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, MJ threw a punch at Kerr
And he drove to his home afterwards and apologized. A man of his status, he didn’t need to do that. He could have waited until the next day.
About MJ throwing bows to college players, I’ll take his word for it. He didn’t elaborate on if it were an inadvertent elbow. I’m not saying MJ doesn’t throw bows, I’m saying he didn’t do it like what Kobe did. Show me a clip of him throwing elbows at Dumars or Isiah. (don’t try, I have the whole series on tape). Kobe could have shoved Artest or bumped him, or get into his face, or hell, even throw a punch, like Jordan did when faced with tough defense. He could have sent a message that way, but no, he had to resort to elbowing the throat during game play. That’s down right dirty.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he apologized
But he still did it.
And Kobe said he regrets the way he was with Shaq. He didn’t have to do that.
And now go back to your tape, and tell me if Charles Oakley threw any elbows. Because just as Derek Fisher did the dirty work for Lamar Odom, Oakley did a lot of the dirty work for Jordan. Kobe was just doing his own dirty work.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The part I don't agree with
is that Kobe didn’t have any dirty work to do, at least none with Battier. Shane is not a talker, and he doesn’t have an ego. The guy does his job, night in night out. I got no problem if Kobe does his dirty work on Artest, because those two go at it all the time. But Battier? Of all the people in the NBA, you’re going to taunt Shane “slap my right cheek i’ll show you my left” Battier? That is just plain stupid. Jordan was an ass, but he was tough. Kobe’s just an ass.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 8, 2009 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I'm going to convince you
But if you’re open minded, flip through the book “Nothing Else Matters”. It paints a very different picture of MJ than the heroic man the media portrays him to be.
I find it hard to believe that you don’t think MJ would go after Battier.
But this has gone back and forth for a while now, so I think we’ll just agree to disagree on the merits of MJ versus Kobe as to which was more honorable.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And for the record
I like Shane Battier, that is how I would be if I were on a court and someone trash-talked me unprovoked. Just ignore it.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you could convince many with that argument
Its no secret that MJ was not a “nice guy”. and I’ll say that I’m no Jordan expert, having only started watching basketball when he was near the end his career (the first time). I know he would often taunt his defenders, but only because they provoked him. If it was a guy like Bruce Bowen, no doubt any scorer would love to rub it in his face. But what I’m saying is Battier has no ego, and competitors love to beat down on other competitors, not guys like Battier.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 8, 2009 1:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in Bulls territory
And trust me. MJ didn’t need anyone to provoke him to talk trash.
by illcowboy on May 8, 2009 7:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom Line
We are talking about a different era of ball. Jordan had to be tough at a whole different level than Kobe. When Jordan played Derek fishers foul would have been the only flagrant and he probably would not have been ejected. Kobe has no idea what a physical series is. So to through an elbow under those circumstances is unwarranted.
And Jordan was a world class trash talker, but again the difference is that he did it win or lose, good game or bad game. Kobe only talks when things are going his way.
by phillykid24 on May 8, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom line
There is not much difference between what Kobe does and what MJ does. Both are pretty unsportmanlike.
Stop making up differences to justify separating Kobe from MJ in terms of personality.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom line
People love MJ.
People will never love Kobe.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well sounds like Kobe needs to find him an enforcer.
And as for as the Shaq-Kobe duel, both were immature. And I thought one grew out of it.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes please
Just watch this video to see the amount of trash talking by Michael Jordan. And he’s proud of it! Blame him, he’s the guy Kobe is following!
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing that I didn't know already. MJ is my idol :)
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not for you, it was for Hardgay
But if MJ is your idol, I sure hope it’s because it’s he’s a great player, not a great person. MJ is not above Kobe in terms of character.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only respect /admire a baller for his on-court actions.
That’s why I’m a Kobe fan, even though his status just dropped several levels.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose I should rephrase what I said.
Disrespecting a defender who has GIVEN YOU RESPECT is not something a legend SHOULD do. There.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 7, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
But what you said was that
For all his faults, Jordan never pulled a stunt like this. This is what will always separate Kobe from the legends – maturity.
And you also said to watch NBA classics, implying that they didn’t disrespect those who had given respect (again, Larry Bird taunted Dr. J unprovoked, by all accounts).
There is less separation than you think.For all his faults, Jordan never pulled a stunt like this. This is what will always separate Kobe from the legends – maturity.
I have no problem with someone differentiating Kobe from the legends for his play – there may be valid points there, but not for his maturity.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you see
Bird taunting Dr. J is not the same thing as Kobe taunting Battier. Erving was obviously on the downside of a brilliant career, and Bird dominated him that game and rubbed it in his face. Sure it was cocky, but Bird had the bragging rights.
Battier is the guy who never expected to shut him down, all he ever said was he would try his best to force him into tough shots. He hasn’t even committed a single hard foul on Kobe even after the physical treatment Kobe gave him in game one. He has repeatedly shown respect for Kobe’s game, and in return Kobe taunts him right after bouncing back from a bad game? That is not Bird/Erving and I seriously doubt Jordan would have done that to someone like Battier. That was my point, sorry if i wasn’t clear earlier.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
by hardgay on May 8, 2009 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man if someone wrote an article
Saying that Battier forced MJ into taking tough shots, and defended him well, you had better believe MJ would be torching him and talking shit to him all game.
Please back me up on this airchina, I know you are an MJ expert.
I know, it’s not Battier’s fault, but that is how these guys operate.
They’re no angels.
And Kobe’s game 1 wasn’t even bad, it was just subpar for him. And who’s to say it was due to Battier? He’s had far worse games with far worse defenders guarding him.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perfect Gils. Me and you see things through the same frames. Kobe shot 45.2% in Game 1. Maybe he just missed shots, maybe it was the rust, not having played for a week. Maybe it was missing practice and pre-game shootarounds due to illness. Maybe it was some Battier. Who knows? Game 2 closely resembled the other Rockets-Lakers games in the regular season with Battier guarding Kobe so there was precedence there.
True if Michael Lewis wrote that article about Battier shutting down Jordan and Daryl Morey said the same, I bet you $1 million Jordan would be right on his trash talking game after destroying Battier.
by Emeka on May 8, 2009 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But.........
Everyone wanted to be like Mike.
Kobe is so smug and full of himself that only people from LA can love him.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quick question from a Lakers fan
I’m sure Ron Artest will still be mad, but I think he is smart enough to keep his temper under control. But know to the question, is anybody worried about him forcing shots or anything?
by adammoney on May 7, 2009 8:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No
he has played well in the playoffs so far in terms of shot selection. He had one bad shot last night, a long 3 that almost missed everything, but other than that its been fine. Ron has learned when to shoot and when to pass. When he starts out hot he will continue to shoot. When he starts out cold he will continue to shoot, but not as much. He understands his role on the Rockets sans t-mac and has ben playing it really well lately.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We might get to see steely, frosty, Ron.
Which could be MORE frightening, actually.
Go to the light. Go to the light...
by Xiane on May 7, 2009 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
About Ron Artest's Shot Selection
Believe me when I tell you Ron Artest HAS taken and MADE some bad shots thus far in this series. The Rockets are BEST SERVED with the ball going into Yao Ming. You need to find a way to deny Gasol and get Yao the ball. Thats it!
Ron’s hot shooting from 3 point land, with a hand in his face, is fool’s gold. If he at all struggles with his shot, which is highly likely in one of the 3 games at the Toyota Center and Yao Ming can’t stay on the floor, the rockets would be in a LOT OF TROUBLE
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know he has taken some bad shots,
But its been much better in the post season than in the regular season
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
I actually am a VERY level-headed Laker fan so I didn’t see too much of Artest in the regular season BUT I hope the rest of the series is intense but not dirty.
Honestly thats the ONLY THING that would make the Lakers play at their best. “WE AGAINST THE WORLD” type mentality. If Kobe struggles with his shot too and the Lakers can’t get out on the break, THEY ARE IN TROUBLE..
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope Kobe guards him
I really really really hope kobe guards artest.
That trash talking is just napalm on the fire. Artest loves it and will do crazy things. Ask the blazers about it when outlaw ran his mouth to much.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So do we get a game officiated by Miss Manners on Friday?
I’m thinking that we do.
Go to the light. Go to the light...
by Xiane on May 7, 2009 8:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
no shes got the Cavs game tonight
extremely doubtful she would ref two nights in a row in the second round. I think they put her in cleveland cause she has the least chance to affect the game there.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
crawford seems bearable during the regular season.
not in the playoffs though
not insinuating anything last night, but i wanna chase him with a stick.
I'll snap yo neck like a twig if you sass me again. . .
by Duhoh on May 7, 2009 8:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
doubtful
It seems unlikely we’ll get him again in the next game. I think we’ll probably get our other good buddy Bennett Salvatore. Most likely Howard will save old Joey for a game 7 or a must win game for the Lakers. Did you see Joey’s shit eating grin in the picture where he was “separating” Kobe and Ron. It’s like he was posing for the picture. Either that or he really wanted to show his spirit fingers.
by theMajician on May 7, 2009 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Court side seats
Any chance we could get rid of the folding chairs court side and replace them with picnic tables to make Ron feel at home?
by theMajician on May 7, 2009 8:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
correction
Sorry, I have to correct myself. I assumed that it was some playground incident that Ron described. The New York Times reported that it was a a YMCA sponsored event in 1991. It was a table leg from the scorer’s table. Damn, I guess sometimes it’s not fun to stay at the YMCA.
by theMajician on May 7, 2009 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron's not putting on any show man....
He reacted and went immediately to the refs about it, Ron truly believes he was hit in the throat. It was probably a pretty hard hit and so close to his throat that that’s why he believes he was hit in the throat.
by big jay on May 7, 2009 9:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Spurs fan here...
I sympathize with you guys. I just don’t understand what Joey Crawford and crew were watching to miss Kobe’s elbow—it was obvious live as I was watching on TV. Probably the correct call was a foul on Artest for manhandling Kobe under the basket, then a tech or flagrant 1 on Kobe for the elbow.
Then again, Crawford missed the contact on this play -—>
and it happened five feet away from him. I wonder if he can see at all, or just blows his whistle every 45 seconds or so and makes something up.
I don’t think Artest overreacted—he probably felt like he got elbowed in the throat, even though replays show it to have been maybe two inches lower than that. If you get hit anywhere near your head, especially if it’s an intentional cheap shot, not an inadvertent elbow, you’re going to feel like you have to defend yourself.
Plus, the Rockets probably go on to lose that game without Artest’s ejection. However, Kobe now is subjected to heightened scrutiny for his ass-clownery for the remainder of the series, which is a big plus for the Rox. Even in the course of the game, he got a tech for taunting Battier, and it only took about 15 instances for the refs to catch on. Maybe if he elbows Artest 14 more times the officials will call him for a foul.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
by tomasito on May 7, 2009 9:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
About Kobe
I highly doubt we see Kobe throw another elbow BUT there probably would be more “He can’t guard me”, “Sam Cassell’s big balls walk/dance where he gestures towards his crotch”. Put it this way. Kobe’s game CAN SUCK but it hardly EVER SUCKS when there is added trash talking. Adelman SHOULD LEAVE Battier on Kobe no matter how many jumpers he keeps draining.
Also Kobe’s trash talking IS ALLOWED. This is the Playoffs where STORIES occur, legacies are submitted. Michael Jordan and Larry Bird are some of the worst trash talkers of ALL TIME and they are remembered as GREAT players and not CLASSLESS ones..
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think he should get T’ed up for the taunts (though they are pretty bush league), but I was just pointing out an example where Artest’s freak-out resulted in tighter scrutiny of Kobe.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
by tomasito on May 7, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most definitely thats what resulted in the T. The refs were trying to keep everything in check.
Kobe would say whatever to get fired up and when he is, he is harder to guard. I expect the Rockets to take the game tomorrow but Fish’s return in Game 4 coupled with the threat of going down 1-3 which is very much like elimination would make that one extra hard to get.
Also I don’t see Carl Landry coming up with 21 and 10 twice more but I do see Yao getting denied the ball twice more. All hands on deck!
by Emeka on May 7, 2009 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, it got cut off for some reason.
Brent Barry should have leaned in instead of trying to dodge the contact. I guarantee if he had leaned in, he would have gotten that call.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because of the no-call
He actually got a decent look a the three, as Fisher was out of the picture by then
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Spurs fan....
I’m sure you know Joey Crawford all too well. When he kicked Tim Duncan out of the game for laughing off the bench, I thought I was seeing things. At least he got suspended for that.
by osa1011 on May 8, 2009 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
NBA/Stu Jackson/Bryant/Artest
Call a spade a spade. The NBA and Stu Jackson are cowards for being in denial just because Kobe is involved specially with Houston suddenly and unexpectedly being compitetive. Suspending him would guarantee a Laker loss. The NBA gods want a Cleveland-LA Finals same as they wanted a Boston-LA Finals last year. Therefore no way did the NBA want to take a risk of the Lakers being eliminated. If they have any guts they should just come out and say so.
Artest was wrong to confront Bryant. but It is even more pathetic and exhibiting the same cowardice for the writer to take Artest to task excessively as you have done.
Bryant is a pomp;ous a…s who throws his weight around and the League Officials and Referees and writers are too gutless to call him out.
by Telling it like it is on May 7, 2009 9:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree with that
couldnt have said it better myself..the NBA wants a Lakers-Cavs Finals….they will make sure this happens no matter what….Sad…If they would have kept their composure last night, I think they would have had a great chance of actually sweeping them…oh well…we will just have to beat them in five..even if we had to deal with joey crawford for each one….GO ROCKETS!
by JRodriguez on May 7, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Retaliation...
Look man here is the deal Kobe got away with a blatant bow to the chest/neck whatever it was. The problem is that it should have never been called a foul on Artest. Once again the league got the call wrong..earlier in the game Fisher’s foul was reviewed on the teleprompter why wasn’t this one. Earlier in the 4th quarter when Artest was put on Kobe you could see them instantly talking smack to each other and Kobe made a motion to Artest with his elbow. Am I the only one who saw that? So was it premeditated..who knows but it was definetely bush by the once golden boy turned rapist(allegedly) turned all of a sudden golden boy again. It’s one thing to be physical but it’s another to maliciously try to hurt another. It will be interesting to see how the refs call game 3…lets just hope that Stern hasnt sent the memo to the refs yet: “Make sure the Lakers get to the finals vs. the Cavs” $$$
by backintheday... on May 7, 2009 10:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
.....
They received that memo from the Stern in Game 1 of the first round….even tho i enjoyed seeing the Jazz cry when they got an ass kickin..haha…
by JRodriguez on May 7, 2009 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's the over/under
On Ron throwing his career away by doing something psycho if it’s evident in the final game that the Rockets are going to get eliminated?
Life is hilarious.
by SolGoode on May 7, 2009 10:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess youre one of those guys who still sees Ron as a thug
Its really sad on your part. Im sorry you havent given the guy a second chance yet.
The over/under is probably negative 100%. And i know thats an impossible percentage.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s the over/under
On Ron throwing his career away by doing something psycho if it’s evident in the final game that the Rockets are going to get eliminated?
An over/under is stated in the form of something countable.
Ex “What’s the over/under on the times Reggie Miller will say something moronic?”
“What’s the over/under on how many times the Lakers will be called dirty in this post?”
“What ’s the over/under on how many times Rockets Red Glare will post that picture?”
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron Artest is not a thug anymore dude.
He’s just crazy and physical. Memo to you: The Palace Brawl was 5 years ago. He hasn’t had any on-court incidents ever since. Got off the man’s back!
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree
Ron donates a lot of time and money to his old neighborhood. He also has a daughter that has cancer and holds his head up so much so that no one even knows that he puts up with it. Not only is Ron not a thug, but I would say overall he has a great heart, he’s just a little “different” shall we say. Furthermore, I was always one of the few people who thought even though Ron made a big mistake going into the stands, he was provoked. If I’m out and about and someone throws beer on me, I’m gonna do something about it.
"[Lebron James] reminds me of a new and improved version of me" - Ron "Crazy Pills" Artest
by ClutchCityCrazyPills on May 8, 2009 1:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well said.
My parents actually live in the neighborhood of Ron’s big estate in Zionsville, IN. I’ve always liked Ron during his time with the Pacers. He always took time to sign autographs and joked with fans. I’ve had the opportunity of meeting him several times, nothing but class from the guy.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 1:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And really by the time of the brawl
Ron has already improved. He came off his best career year: Named Defensive Player of the year, became an all-star, and helped the Indiana Pacers to the league’s best record. If you see the video clip, Ron Artest was calmly walking away from the altercation and lied down on the scorer’s table. I believe 90% of the men on this world will go after that bastard in the stands in that situation.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will bet you my house, car, and bank account against you putting up $20 that nothing happens.
Easiest money I ever made.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
texashoosier
I see you holding it down on ss&r for htown. Great rocket fan bro!
by HTOWNCYPRESSBOY on May 7, 2009 11:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Gracias HTOWNCY!!
Just doin my part for the Clutch City
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 8, 2009 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
tom martin, shut up.
kobe is a dirty player.
he didn’t win the mvp.
he’s going crazy
by nbasports on May 7, 2009 11:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Elbow???
Derek Fisher was suspended for one game for knocking Luis Scola to the floor with an elbow.
Shoulder.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on May 7, 2009 11:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It was malicious intent. He saw Scola coming, and then took a step towards him to deliver the blow.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Malicious?
He was trying to inflict pain, yes, but not the type you can’t get up and walk off (which he did).
He wasn’t trying to end his career or something.
A suspension is the correct punishment.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to inflict pain is not malicious?
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is malicious by definition
But I was trying to distinguish the type of pain. There are degrees to inflicting pain. One is to send a message. Another is to injure permanently (or one with long lasting effects).
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think the league took it as Fisher didn't have control of how much pain could have been inflicted.
He could have waited for Scola’s pick and charged into his body. Same message would have been sent. I know Fisher is not a dirty player, but this will live with his image forever.
by airchina23 on May 8, 2009 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope so.....
I think he was getting a little soft.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
by pslakerfan on May 8, 2009 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if Scola's head had bounced off the court and recieved a concussion?
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a valid point
You can’t necessarily control the consequences of your actions,
but on the same point, Fisher could have brushed off the pick, Scola could have fallen, and his head could have bounced off the court and got a concussion, too. So intent and the degree of maliciousness in intent is important.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The League took the easy way out.
There is no way the league got a better camera angle then anyone else got. Bottom Line, it is hard to see where the elbow hit but we can see Ron’s head snap back. It’s pretty hard to fake that. I don’t think Ron was acting for no reason. Furthermore, I don’t trust that the league found a good enough angle to definitively rule out that Kobe committed a suspendable offense, but any amount of grey area made it possible for them to call flagrant one. This is the same league that has yet to fire Joey Crawford, that implemented a new officiating system and somehow made the officiating even worse, and seems to have completey inconsistent rules that allow for grey area so the league can weasel out of making tuff disciplinarian calls.
That being said…I think it will be more sweet to beat the Lakers with Kobe in game 3 than without him. I also think that what he did didn’t warrant a suspension except for the fact that Dwight Howard did practically the same thing and was suspended. I am tired of the Lakers being given one standard of accountability and the rest of the league being given another. Imagine if the tables were turned and Ron threw that same questionable elbow at Kobe…He would be sitting at home tommorrow night.
"[Lebron James] reminds me of a new and improved version of me" - Ron "Crazy Pills" Artest
by ClutchCityCrazyPills on May 8, 2009 1:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He would be sitting at home because of precedence of having started a brawl in the past. Same rules apply in a court of law
AND IT IS PRETTY HARD TO TALK AND SHOUT AFTER BEING ELBOWED SQUARE IN THE THROAT. NOT SO? Crazy Pills was elbowed around the upper chest area. PERIOD
by Emeka on May 8, 2009 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The throat is a pretty wide region
While I don’t think he got hit in the Adam’s apple, I think he may have been hit right above the chest bones, where those two pointy bones come out below your neck.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Check that
I know now that he didn’t hit Artest in the Adam’s apple because in his post game interview, Ron said “I can take it. It doesn’t hurt. But he could have hit me in the Adam’s apple.”
Still, the next time Kobe throws an elbow, he’s likely to get suspended.
And I don’t agree, if Ron throws that elbow, he would get a flagrant one as well, not a suspension.
If the league were really out to get Ron, they would have made something up to suspend him for continuing to gesture and yell at Kobe.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying that there's a conspiracy but...
I just don’t think the NBA truly thinks about how the viewership sees its actions. When they are questioned, instead of taking it as a real opportunity to change, they get cocky and make the same boneheaded mistakes they have always made.
Furthermore, why doesn’t Kobe have the same kind of reputation that proceeds him? He’s always chippy. He gets called for as many technical fouls in a season as Ron usually. He’s intense and not nice to anyone. He’s also had off the court issues. Why does he get a free goldenboy pass on his reputation?
"[Lebron James] reminds me of a new and improved version of me" - Ron "Crazy Pills" Artest
by ClutchCityCrazyPills on May 8, 2009 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he hasn’t gone into the stands in a brawl in the past. And NO he was never convicted in the rape case and he is and has been a franchise player for a long time. There are a lot of things on his resume people look at that Artest doesn’t come close to having.
The FUNNY part of the whole scenario is that Kobe and Artest and pretty good buddies off the court..lol
by Emeka on May 8, 2009 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wat
they’re good friends off the courts? Got any pictures or something?
by Tam Henry xD on May 8, 2009 2:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But...... he is a smug douche bag
And Artest is liked by anyone he plays with as long as they play hard, ie. McGrady.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
artest is definitely one of the players
i enjoy watching, whether it’s his dedication on def, his goofy/loopy demeanor/chit-chatting, or the mind-boggling shot selection that he’s completely unapologetic about. he’s just an exciting player, in many different ways. stay on the court ron. you’re going to get a lot less leeway due to your rep, and you need to understand that. but not getting ejected makes this series a lot more fun to watch, even as a laker fan.
by whorge on May 8, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously does anyone in Houston have ESPN?
I thought everyone had seen the other angle by now.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
by pslakerfan on May 8, 2009 2:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, maybe not as bad of a reputation...
should proceed Kobe, but he certainly shouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt reputation he seems to get around the league. He is simply not a nice guy and this certainly isn’t the first time he has thrown an elbow or made a play that is questionable for intention. However, it always seems that with Kobe, everyone portrays him as this nice guy who can do no wrong, and when he does they make excuses for him.
"[Lebron James] reminds me of a new and improved version of me" - Ron "Crazy Pills" Artest
by ClutchCityCrazyPills on May 8, 2009 2:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He may benefit some, but it's not extreme kid gloves that he gets.
Don’t ignore the evidence that doesn’t support your argument.
As a Lakers fan, I remember when Kobe was getting suspended left and right for “unnatural movements” on the court. This even included being left out of a big trip to the ever popular Madison Square Garden.
It’s almost like the football rule, where there needs to be clear evidence. And although there are some in the extreme who say it was clear, according to the league standard of an elbow “above the shoulders” it was not clear one way or the other.
When the evidence has been damning, the league has punished Kobe appropriately.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 2:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I understand the the Lakers are the opponent
So Kobe must be the enemy, but really he’s not some villain off the court.
From the OC Register
Kobe Bryant’s work with kids brings joy, though sometimes it’s fleeting.
Kobe Bryant meets every child brought to him through the Make-A-Wish Foundation, which means not every ending will be happy.
He’s no saint, but he’s not some monster who will eat your children. He will meet your children though, if they are terminally ill and wish to meet him.
Thought I would inject some perspective here. I know, party pooper. Sorry.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 3:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Kobe Byrant discriminates healthy children
;-)
these fanposts are starting to kill me
by misterterrific on May 8, 2009 3:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Artest meets every sick and healthy child
He even tutors them in math.
Artest could run circles around Kobe on the multiplication tables, even with Kobe smack talking.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true.
Doesn’t Artest have a degree in Math?
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
by Artest4Prez on May 8, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he loves it.
Instead of doing the standard read a kids book to kids, he does math problems with them.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He tells them
“24 is greater than 23, kids, in mathematical language that is written as 24>23”.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop going over Kobe's head there.
Don’t you know he didn’t take math his senior year of high school.
by texasag on May 8, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In favor....
Of Ron, and not b/c im a rockets fan. kobe got away with too much trash talking/ taunting to battier before it was actually called, any other player would have got a tech much quicker. and a hit to the neck is a hit to the neck, it dont take much of a hit for a person to be effected, and kobe THREW that elbow, and not for positioning. and then he sees the fish take down, and the stare down by odom, which again, by another other player, or should i say team…gets a tech. yeah we may have got away with some stuff too but the laker pretty girls get away with alot more. hopefully adelman’s able to calm down ron ron and he focuses on whipping that ass here at home.
LET’S GO ROCKETS!
by kg_2005 on May 8, 2009 10:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and by the way....
u think Bryant is allowed to help with any kids in Colorado?….anybody? anybody?
by kg_2005 on May 8, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
trash talking Kobe
I think Kobe looked like an idiot out there trash talking to Shane. I understand that trash talking happens, but usually there’s two sides to it. I can understand if Shane was talking trash back or said something before the game to intice Kobe, but he’s not stupid enough to do that. He never siad he’s a “kobe stopper,” nobody in the Rockets organization said he was. All he has said is that he tries to keep him away from the basket and put a hand in his face when he shoots jumpers. Sometimes Kobe still makes them, sometimes he doesn’t. Does he have to say “he can’t guard me” after every made shot? It just shows how much of a fool he is and why so many people hate this guy. He’s such an arrogant pompous ass. Why do you think he’s the only super star that fans hate so much? Most everybody likes or respects LeBron, Dwayne, Chris Paul, etc.
by Enfuego142000 on May 8, 2009 10:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i think this is in reference to an article
i remember from earlier this year, where morey or someone was quoted as saying kobe is a lot less effective with battier on him. kobe plays with the biggest chip on his shoulder and gets a little butt hurt and takes it personally when anyone says ANYTHING about him. who knows why.. maybe that’s what drives him.
anyhow, i wouldn’t say cp3 doesn’t talk… i always see him talking out there when i watch hornets games. maybe less this year because the pieces around him sucked. also, lest we forget about cheap shots, didn’t cp3 give julius hodge a nutpunch in the ncaa tourney? off topic, but it’s funny how people generalize players into respected and hated categories — just an observation.
by whorge on May 8, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely
off topic, but it’s funny how people generalize players into respected and hated categories — just an observation
People make up who they think is a good guy and who isn’t and then act accordingly, never mind all the nutpunches and kicks CP3 has delivered.
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Artest action.....
He got done what he wanted to see done, and that was for the NBA to take notice of what he has been doing since this series statred, sctually what he does all games against players that give him a GAME!!! ’nough said!
by kmbrly429 on May 8, 2009 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Opinion....
If you are suppose to be a Role Model for the NBA, like the NBA CARES, you should act the same way on the court, and if the NBA wants to show kids and all fans who look up to these players, that you should be model figure on and off the court then they need to start showing these players that you can not act like a jackass on the court and then go into the community and act like you are some good citizen, ……showing the wrong message NBA?!!!?
by kmbrly429 on May 8, 2009 10:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The behavior required to succeed a the highest level of professional play
Is not the same as required in most of society
by Gils_Keloids on May 8, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone thought about the fact that Ron Artest may be talking about a play that wasn’t the one being replayed on ESPN?
Here’s my theory:
Kobe elbows/abuses Ron Artest at least once throughout the course of the game, partially because that’s how he plays and partially because growing up watching guys like Stockton and Jordan, he knows where and when he can get away with it. Ron then becomes upset, and at this particular moment, he genuinely believes he’s been dicked one more time. And on top of that, he gets called for a foul. And if I’m Ron Artest, it doesn’t even matter anymore where Kobe elbows me (could be in the chest, the neck, in hip, etc), he’s been throwing elbows the entire game and getting away with it. So now I’m pissed that 1) he’s been throwing elbows without getting caught, 2) I’m getting called for some bogus foul, 3) I’m being punished for said foul, which pales in comparison to all the baggage I still carry for the Palace brawl. So now that I have no help from the refs, or the crowd, or even replay, I’m going to have to send a message to Kobe myself. I certainly don’t think this warrant’s a suspension, seeing that my intention is not to hurt Kobe, but I’m going to run halfway across the court to confront a player without even thinking about how other people will interpret my actions.
So yeah, if I’m Ron Artest, I’m not really thinking about WHERE Kobe’s elbows land, but rather that the buck stops here and that I’ve had enough.
by brianfbb on May 9, 2009 6:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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