Great Players Need Other Great Players to Win Championships
by Tom Martin on Jun 16, 2009 4:47 PM CDT
in Random Commentary
28 comments
This should not have to be discussed, but I've been hearing too much on the radio and reading too much in the comments section to ignore it any longer. Have you heard/read something along these lines lately?
Kobe Bryant needed Pau Gasol and Trevor Ariza and Lamar Odom to win it all. He can't win by himself, so he's not elite.
Shaquille O'Neal needed Kobe and Dwyane Wade to win it all, but couldn't win by himself. This diminishes his legacy.
Before anyone else decides to open up their mouth with even more rubbish like this, let me set the record straight: great players need other great players to win NBA Championships. Even the most elite of players can not win a championship by themselves. It has rarely happened over the last twenty years (scroll down).
The belief that Kobe can't win without a great player with him isn't a knock on him: it's the truth. He needed Pau to win this championship. Michael Jordan would need Pau to win this championship had he been in Kobe's place. It's common sense.
Speaking of Jordan, he had Pippen. Speaking of ANYONE, they had someone else. If your team isn't going to be uncommonly balanced (early 2000's Detroit Pistons), it had better have a second or third go-to guy.
Look at any team in the last decade and a half. The Boston Celtics, San Antonio Spurs, Chicago Bulls, Miami Heat - they all had the notable names (Pierce, Duncan, Jordan, Wade), but had other All-Stars surrounding them (Allen and Garnett, Parker and Ginobili, Pippen, O'Neal).
We have one exception. It's the 1994 Houston Rockets, led by Hakeem Olajuwon. Yet another reason why this blog is named after him.
If you wanted to, you could also count Tim Duncan's 2003 Spurs as an exception. But that's it. I'd like to give as much credit to The Dream as possible.
Another unnecessary criticism thus far has been placed on LeBron James. Is Mo Williams supposed to be his Pippen? Again, place Jordan on the Cavs and he'd be lucky to win a single ring. LeBron still needs more help, and it's not a criticism, only a realistic view.
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Great Post.
Shitty teams don’t win championships. Something that should just be common sense, but some people just don’t get it. Like people who think Bill Russell and Chuck Hayes are similar players.
by erod on Jun 16, 2009 5:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
talk about missing the point
I said Russell and Chuck Hayes played similar roles on their respective teams as a way to point out that no one gameplanned for Russell.
by grungedave on Jun 16, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still wrong
Yeah please stop comparing Chuck Hayes to Bill-Freakin-Russell.
by erod on Jun 17, 2009 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree that Russell was overrated
He wasn’t devoid of offensive moves. He was typically in the top 2-3 on his team in scoring. He’s still not a top 5 center (6’8) or a top 10 NBA player. But Dave I think you are taking it too far with Hayes. Camby is the right comparison in my opinion.
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on Jun 17, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the comparison
Russell and Hayes played similar roles for winning teams.
The player abilities/capabilities of Russell and Camby are far more accurate if we are going to compare them strictly as individuals.
by grungedave on Jun 17, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't though
Russell was the 2nd leading scorer multiple times on his team. Chuck Hayes is not.
Russell was an offsensive player in that era, just not a dominant one
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on Jun 17, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not comparing them as players... comparing their *roles*.
Please stop seeing everything as black-and-white… the world operates in shades of grey.
by grungedave on Jun 17, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still.Not.Close.
Russell was the missing peice that took the Celtics from a non-championship team to a championship team. Last time I checked, Hayes doesn’t come close to filling that “role”. Or maybe it’s because we keep playing guys like Yao Ming, Luis Scola, and Carl Landry over him. Maybe we should bench them in favor of Hayes because he’s a Bill Russell type role player.
Please stop the insanity.
by erod on Jun 17, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally - Hakeem is the exception
Not that he did it alone, but he has a unique distribution of talent amongst the championship teams.
Most title teams have two or three big stars and a slew of role players.
The Hakeem Rockets did it with 1 big star and a slew of role players plus (I call them “role players plus” because they were a little better than role players). The second title, however was more along the typical model, with Hakeem and Clyde as the big stars.
The only team in recent history that I can think of to do it with no stars is the Pistons. They did it with an All-Star second string team.
Wish I could graph these out, showing with the drop off in talent. The Pistons would be like one straight line, but one that starts higher than a role player plus. Hakeem’s team certainly had the biggest dropoff from number one player to number two player.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 16, 2009 5:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
to be fair
Hakeem did have one future HOFer on his 1994 team:
Robert Horry.
by grungedave on Jun 16, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Borderline HOFer, I seen discussions about Horry's Hall-worthiness over at BSPN
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 16, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
would not say that here...
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on Jun 16, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Derek Fisher had hit big shots, but I don't believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame
Just for comparison, I know Horry hit more big shots.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 16, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummm
I suggest you go back and read the member agreement for this site.
Robert Horry is a HOFer, dammit, and any argument to the contrary puts you on notice. :-)
by grungedave on Jun 16, 2009 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops
OK then, even Hakeem had another Hall of Famer on each of his title team rosters!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 16, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People underrate Otis Thorpe I think
But yes, Hakeem clearly has the least talent of a championship team.
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
by UofTOrange on Jun 17, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would add, the real differentiator for the superstar championships might be
Did you win a championship without a Hall of Famer as your number two guy?
Shaq might not qualify, if DWade ends up being a Hall of Famer!
Jordan doesn’t.
Hakeem’s first team makes it, but not his second.
Kobe gets credit for this year’s title under this criteria (unless Pau makes it to the Hall, based on his international accomplishments).
Are the 04 Pistons the only team (after the 80s) to win a title without a HOFer?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 16, 2009 5:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I could have separated each team from the others a little more.
And yes, I don’t think any team over the last twenty years has won a title without a HOFer besides Motown.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on Jun 16, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm, just thought of the Spurs
Manu might make it to the Hall based on international play, but is Parker really considered the second guy?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 16, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also
Parker in 2003 was a 19 year old rookie who did not play particularly well…
and David Robinson was a shell of his former self.
Duncan did almost everything by himself that year.
by grungedave on Jun 16, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoot. That's right.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on Jun 16, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
That one was about as close as you get to a one-man team.
Still, in the spirit of being simple-mined, I’d say “He had Hall of Famers!” just to irk people.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 16, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
laker fan here
THANK GOD FOR THIS POST!!! i’ve been saying for years that the dream is the only person EVER that i can think of that won a championship without another all star/future hall of famer on his team. that is why he is my favorite non laker ever. it also helps that i watched a bunch of rockets games when he was there because my mom was/is his biggest fan. players legacies should not be knocked because they couldn’t win without another all star/future hall of famer. that’s why all the “kobe can’t win without shaq” talk before this year pissed me off
by Adamas on Jun 16, 2009 6:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i would also like to add
that this post can also be applied to mvp awards
by Adamas on Jun 16, 2009 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh
it also helps that i watched a bunch of rockets games when he was there because my mom was/is his biggest fan
Where is her blog? :-)
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
by Tom Martin on Jun 16, 2009 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dwight Howard Needs Hakeem in the Offseason
by Im Naming My Kid Scola on Jun 17, 2009 7:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Great article...
it’s about the dream! although the bringing up of howard being chosen to the nba 1st team made me sick to my stomach all over again. idk maybe its just me, but i thought that yao is the more offensive skilled center in the nba and class is always in session when yao plays against dwight.
just as a side question. anybody else worried about this?
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=12803
by kg_2005 on Jun 17, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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