... And Then There Is Al Jefferson
by Tom Martin on Apr 27, 2010 2:22 AM CDT
in Random Commentary
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PrintI love this picture. Okay, on to business.
Dave Hardisty, founder of Houston Rockets message board Clutchfans.net, writing in his annual season recap, mentions Minnesota Timberwolves forward/center Al Jefferson as a potential offseason trade target for the Houston Rockets.
While not Bosh, Jefferson would be an enticing addition. While the injury history is frightening, I have for some time considered Al to be the most offensively gifted center in basketball. The 25-year-old would immediately become option A in the Houston offense.
...
However, what I find most interesting was that Big Al has three years remaining on his contract, the same number as Kevin Martin. With the window on Yao Ming's prime closing, the Houston Rockets could set themselves up with a timely escape route in 2013.
I think we might have overlooked this one. Jefferson has always been a favorite of mine as well, and I think he would add a rare dose of flexibility to our team. He's not a natural power forward, but he is quick enough to play the position. In that regard, perhaps the Rockets could pair Jefferson with Yao in the starting lineup, and then rotate Big Al in at center with Jordan Hill or Luis Scola coming off the bench, depending on who we would keep.
As long as we're talking about injury histories, let's not forget how closely Jefferson falls next to Chris Bosh on the scale. Each has only played in one full season, and while Jefferson has missed more games per season in his career, he's coming off a 76-game year. I'd like to think that with all of the Rockets' season-killing injuries in the past that health is a factor when it comes to making additions, but there are only a handful of good-to-great players out there that don't miss 5-10 games a year due to injury.
Feel free to banter on in the comments, but just remember:
A) Al Jefferson would be cheaper than Chris Bosh.
B) His contract expires the same year that Martin's does, which, as Rahat points out, would give us a pathway towards rebuilding if we wished to do so.
C) Picture a Daryl Morey / David Kahn battle. Without laughing.
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The trouble with Jefferson is that he doesn’t play a whole lot of defense. I’d be okay with the pickup, but as a successor to Yao… well, let me put it this way. If Yao doesn’t manage to anchor the 5 for us for years to come, we’re going to be the Phoenix Suns.
It’s pretty hard, maybe impossible, to find a guy who meets our ideal qualifications, though.
-Can play both PF and C
-Go-to scorer, or at least option 1c
-Great rebounder
-Formidable inside presence on defense, including but not limited to shotblocking
Agreed.
If you’re going to have a star power forward or center playing big minutes and he’s not a strong to dominant defender, it’s going to be really tough to be an elite team.
Bosh isn’t exactly Tim Duncan but at least he can D up on the high post and play the pick and roll. Big Al has a lot of issues on defense (but damn can he score the ball).
OK, so you settle for:
can play PF or C
reasonably efficient finisher if others are drawing attention, option 4 (Yao-Martin-Brooks seems fine as option 1-2-3, and we’re leaving off Scola here, who may or may not be around)
good rebounder (honestly, at the Landry level should be fine)
Formidable inside presence on defense, including but not limited to shotblocking,
—and the ability to guard out on the floor, including pick-and-roll situations
(we can’t have another slow-footed guy out there with Yao)
Brook Lopez or Joakim Noah would actually be really good fits, I think, but it’s hard to imagine a scenario where Morey manages to pry either of them away. Any other names anybody can think of?
I would love Noah.
But I can’t see the Bulls giving him up.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Wolves fan
Al Jefferson is basically an anti-Battier, I would think, in Morey’s mind. He scores conspicuously, but not with great efficiency. (For a power player, Al is almost hard wired to avoid drawing fouls.) Defensively, Al Jefferson is pretty danged bad, both subjectively and in terms of any measurements, primitive or advanced, you might employ. And we know Morey would use any and all of the measures.
In some ways I look at dealing Landry as a test case for how much value Daryl Morey would see in a Jefferson. Didn’t he essentially “sell high” on Landry’s post scoring, recognizing that the not-good rebounding was hurting his actual value? Would Morey now “buy high” on Big Al?
(As long as y’all are talking about Kevin Martin, just by the by, David Kahn made at least one comment about not liking Martin’s contract.)
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
i wudnt mind al jefff
as long as we dont trade so much
by EveryHoustonTeamRox! on Apr 27, 2010 7:05 AM CDT reply actions
See
http://www.thedreamshake.com/2010/4/23/1439358/trade-with-the-timberwolves
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of the move depending on the pieces we’d have to give up. Al has managed to obliterate the Rockets most of the time we play them though, so it would be nice to turn that into an asset as opposed to a detriment. End of the day I’m just not sold on picking up Jefferson. I think this team will be fine between retention, draft, and the return of Yao. We’ll have spare parts we can scrap out for future 2nd rounders or for other low key players and we have a Mid Level Exception. Morey really did assemble this team with plenty of flexibility, I don’t think we need a player like Jefferson or Bosh to be contenders next year.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
that picture
Is ridiculous. That being said, I don’t think there’s a way we see al jefferson go unless they bite on something like all of our rookies, a pick or two, jeffries and cash. Considering kahn thought big al was worth as much as danny granger, I doubt we see that sort of trade happen.
Wafer . . . again. (Marv Albert, HOU v. CLE Feb 2009)
-one of the FEW at Toyota Center who has the Wafer jersey
by olivarezq1 on Apr 27, 2010 8:01 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
A Core of Brooks/Martin/Al Jefferson...
Doesn’t that just scream 2010 Toronto Raptors to you? Elite offense, no defense = 40-45 wins. Gross oversimplification I know, I’m just saying…
Granted, at least we wouldn’t have Hedo “I just want to dance” Turkoglu.
I think you meant to say
“at least we wouldn’t have Hedo “Ball…” Turkoglu." Although “I just want to dance” works well too.
"That little man, he's so good, I wanted to kiss him, but no, I'm not." Luis Scola on ABZ
by ressaliance_00 on Apr 27, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Dare I say it????
Al Jefferson is better than Chris Bosh. The End.
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Perhaps I won't go that far
Because Bosh’s efficiency is hard to match. But I don’t think that Al is as bad of a defender as people think. He has never had any good defenders around him – having Jonny Flynn let point guards into the paint at will doesn’t make his job any easier. Put Al into a better defensive system, give him a little motivation to win and a little help around him, and he should be fine.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Another point
This is hard to measure statistically, but put Jefferson on a real team, with real coaches, and an expectation to win and deliver good play and maybe he’s better. Possibly a lot better.
"Each in turn... volunteered his suggestions, his invaluable suggestions."
People that think Jefferson's D is bad
Don’t or haven’t watched him play. He’s actually relatively solid on D. And he has all the skills to do well
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
I wish you could've seen the last couple of months this year
Jefferson never really had his legs under him this season, and I have to give him credit in many ways for gutting out the year and all that kind of thing. He’s got to be down home right now in a big bubble bath, listening to Barry Manilow sing “I Made It Through the Rain.”
But he gave up defensively, and it was as ugly as I’ve ever seen from an NBA big. The last game of the year, Detroit ran more than one isolation of Big Ben Wallace on Jefferson, and Wallace was able to take Big Al across the lane and lay it in with little difficulty. Against Denver like a month before that, the Nuggets (with Carmelo and Chauncey playing well) chose to exploit Al one-on-one with Nene. Again, success. This was not individual moments; Al Jefferson, defensively, was atrocious this season. Early in the year he made more effort, I’ll give him that. But he was bad. So bad.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Not an Al fan for Rockets,and losing desire for Bosh
Prob because every game I’ve seen him play he does all his scoring on low post. He’s got all the shots down low,in fact he reminds me of a bigger,stronger Scola. But he does all his scoring in the low post and isn’t that where we want Yao?
Bosh is a better hi-post player w/a decent mid-range jumper who seems to be a better fit on offense w/Yao. and Bosh looks to be a better passer as well. BUT…
I admit to being shocked when looking up their stats to see Al actually blocks shots at a slightly higher rate than Bosh. In fact Shane Battier over the past 3 seasons has played in 207 games and has 220 blocks while Bosh has played in 214 games and has 212 blocks.(Al has had 300 blocks in 208 games.)
Considering Bosh was the starting PF on a Toronto team that at beginning of season was putting up historically bad defensive numbers,and that a Martin/Brooks backcourt is also a major defensive liability,I seriously doubt a Bosh/Martin/Brooks core could stop anybody.
Now what I really hope is Minn wins the lottery and gets the First pick and we can send them pieces to enable Jefferson to be traded to a third team and scoop up Rubio as the price for our help.
While Minn would undoubtedly like to unload Al’s contract,Kevin Love is the player who Rambiss would love to get rid of.
I got to say this lack of defense is really starting to worry me
Granted, without Yao or any center roughly near 7 feet tall, we were always going to suffer defensively, but we totally fell apart at the end of this season. I don’t think we can just count on Yao coming back and filling the hole entirely. We need Yao back healthy AND another big man who can play lock down defense, with scoring is secondary.
We have Martin, Brooks, Ariza, Yao and Scola for scoring. I think we need a defensive minded bigman instead of someone like Bosh or Al. Pryzbilla sounds like a better fit…and too bad Camby is taken by Portland.
Otherwise you get the following: Houston Rockets become the Suns/any D’Antoni team/Raptors. So we trade for Bosh, for example. Yeah, everyone cheers, sports commentors go nuts etc…
The starting lineup: Yao, Bosh, Brooks, Ariza, Martin. Key Backups: Lowry and Hill or Lowry and Bud (yeah we had to trade Scola and Bud or Hill and probably Shane with draft picks to get Bosh)
Great, we have this offensive powerhouse, but then if Yao can’t play extended minutes, which he shouldn’t be doing anyway, or god forbid he gets hurt, then we have Bosh, Brooks, Martin, Ariza and Hill starting? Where is the defense? and if Hill or Bud can pickup their D can they pick it up that much? Ariza is good on D but not that good. We become a run and gun offense, that is fun to watch but then we run and gun right out of the first round.
If we take a defensive minded big man that works better. We can get the points from all the other players but need the lock down D in the paint no matter what.
Thoughts on my crazy argument?
No, I agree completely, that’s why I’d love to draft Cole Aldrich despite some bitching about him earlier. Need a defensive stopper from the draft or maybe by trade (but I can’t think of a good guy to trade for that fits that criteria except maybe Gortat).
Agreed on Aldrich
I hate the man, but he would be an excellent pick. Problem is, I don’t think he’ll make it to us, and he’s not worth trading up to get.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Definitely agree about not trading up to get him, but he’s the kind of guy who tends to fall late in drafts, so I wouldn’t be shocked at all to see him make it to 14, even though it seems unlikely right now.
Usually the high upside “project” guys are last minute risers and the low upside guys where you know what you’re getting fall at the last minute.
I may be wrong here
but Jefferson has not played for a winning team in his entire career. The expectations would be raised. I think he would fit, though.
He is a better defender than most think. He rebounds about as well as Luis, and would give the Rockets another post presence.
My question is how well he would play with Yao. Two guys who need the ball at the block is a recipe for disaster.
How many Biletnikoffs does he have? NOT TWO!
Some basic numbers
Advanced stats may well tell a different story but the basics over past 3 seasons are:
Bosh in 214 games,w/7,876 minutes has 2113 rebounds and 212 blocks.
Al in 208 games,w/7,216 minutes has 2162 rebounds and 300 blocks.
(Scola in 246 games has 7,182 minutes and 1950 rebounds.)
On the other hand Bosh has over 700 more points on @80 fewer shot attempts than Al.(Mainly due to Bosh getting almost twice as many FTs.)
"He's not a natural power forward..."
Al was drafted as a PF,played PF and has always been thought of as one of the PF’s who have had to play out of position as a C. He’s becoming semi-expendable in Minn because Darko(Darko!) played well enough at C that Minn realized if it wanted to become a good team it couldn’t get by w/Al(or Love) playing out of position any longer.
It depends
on how you look at it in my opinion. He’s similar to Tim Duncan in that some people consider him a PF and some consider him a C. I personally think of Jefferson as more of low post, center type of player.
"I am from one of the top 15 cities in the world. Buffalo, New York." - TrentEdwardsHoF2018
When I think of Al Jefferson
I keep having this weird image of a fleeter of foot Emeka Okafor.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
In today's game
He’s just not quick enough to be a standard power forward. He’s a slightly undersized center, although Rockets fans can’t really call 6’11 “undersized.” But his primary position in the NBA is center – he CAN play power forward, and that’s the point I was making.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
That's actually why I like him for the Rockets
He is a PF that plays some center which is exactly what we’d want him to do
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
I like big Al & as I've said before he always gives Yao fits. My only worry is the health also?!
One FA I’d like to get this off season, (I know Al’s not a FA just saying) is Travis Outlaw! With Battier getting a lil older or maybe being part of a sign & trade but still having Ariza to take his spot for the future I think Outlaw would be a good back up 3!
No.
We have no shortage of wings, and Battier is still okay. If we trade him, maybe, but our priority for me is third-string PG and big guy. Getting another wing role player is something I’m overly interested in.
Minnesotan Rockets fan
Outlaw
I rather like Outlaw as well,but he’s a tweener who was at his best as a PF is a small ball line-up. He is a fairly poor rebounder and not a very good defensive SF. But he can elevate and get a shot off whenever he wants and he’s a good teammate in the lockerroom.
I just don’t see a roster spot for him unless the Rockets do a 3 for 1 trade. Not to mention it will take most of the MLE to sign him.
well if your counting on a sign & trade for Bosh then Battiers probably gone. I'd rather have Chase back up Martin
at the 2 cause he can handle the ball but that leaves us no back up small forward! & a 3rd PG Barragan?? really?? when do you expect him to play?? garbage minutes ok but with AB & Lowry there’s no way a 3rd PG gets minutes! especially with how adamant Morey is about resigning Lowry I don’t see why he’d go after a 3rd PG?? big man definitely but forget about that 3rd PG.
Why a 3rd PG?
Because I can’t count on Lowry being healthy the whole time. At all. Not with his playing style. And I don’t like the idea of Lowry getting injured, Brooks playing 40+ minutes for consecutive games and getting worn out, and scrub PGs taking up the rest of the time. That’s what killed us this year.
Llull would be perfect, but he’s not coming this year and he’s made it obvious he has no interest in being a third-stringer when he’s a valuable player for Real Madrid. Perhaps an old, tall PG who can play limited minutes.
If we trade Battier as part of a Bosh deal, then yes, you could look for another wing. But that’s an “if”, and not something to worry about until such a deal is actually done.
Minnesotan Rockets fan
What are the odds of us even getting Bosh?
All of this talk about getting Bosh makes me cringe. How many teams are “going to get LeBron” or Wade or Joe Johnson, etc….
In all likelihood Wade will either stay in Miami or go to Chicago, LeBron signs a 3 yr extension with Cleveland and JJ and Bosh go to NYC. No one is going to the Nets right now to play for no fans in backwater NJ. I just don’t see why we are even in the Bosh conversation. Everyone thinks their team has a shot at these guys but I just don’t see it.
I don’t know the cap space numbers but probably we couldn’t get him without giving up a ton, assuming Bosh would prefer Houston to NYC, and would Bosh really excel with us along with Yao, Martin and Brooks all being great shooters who will all want shots?
Lets just be realistic and shoot for someone lower to backup/support the current group of bad asses….
Gortat sounds good to great option, I think he has a relatively expensive contract with Orlando but probably below our cap space. If we could add someone like him and maybe another defensive stopper we are golden.
Bosh and Joe Johnson are the guys most likely to leave
And both happen to fit needs (JJ moving to the 3 in that case).
I’d say Bosh is 60/40 to leave and it may be more like 70/30. Johnson is 30/70 but if Woodson leaves he’s not staying.
Wade and Lebron are more like 5/95 so that’s why you hear Bosh more and more around here.
And the Rockets really want him and have publicly made that known
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Well thats a good point but thats exactly what I'm saying. We already own a few PG's that
can come in if need be, we don’t need to waste tha MLE on that when we can get ’em cheaper! Use that mid level & get another needed player because I think at least Battier, Bud or Ariza will be gone in this S&T for Bosh.
In defense of guys calling out Al's defense:
I don’t think people are saying he’s a bad defender and that’s all there is to it.
He’s just a slow, low post type defender. Which is fine, but it makes it hard to play him with Yao on that side of the floor. He’s the kind of guy who will stay home in the paint and has problems when asked to consistently come out and hedge pick and rolls.
Our (or maybe just my) only point is that if you have a big who plays that kind of ball for 35 minutes a game, it’ll be tough to be an elite defensive team if that guy isn’t an elite defensive player just by how important that position (the big who stays home and takes up space) is to a team’s defense.
Here’s is DraftExpress’s Profile on Al Jefferson’s defense (if you like their scouting):
Has the length and strength to be effective on this end, but lacks the fundamentals and effort level to capitalize…Shows great timing and anticipation when contesting shots, but isn’t quite quick enough to be a major factor coming over from the weakside. Gets quite a few of his blocks on the ball. Very instinctive in that regard. A liability when attempting to defend power forwards, which forces his team to play him as an undersized center…Struggles to hedge screens on the perimeter—doesn’t recover to his man very quickly.
I agree, he has some great tools and he could be a lot better than what he’s shown if placed in a better situation. But from watching that video “What Geeks Don’t Get” (really good post btw Tom, that was a good watch), Daryl Morey doesn’t seem to invest a lot of money based on what a player could be, only what he actually is.
I only seem him a couple of times a year, I’ll give you that, and he’s a beast offensively, but I still stand by my statement: As he is now, he leaves a lot to be desired on the other end of the court.
—
Sorry for the book, but I saw a couple of “if you think he’s bad at D you’ve never seen him” posts and I thought I’d give my 2 cents (which is more like 2 Chilean pesos, I admit).
Of course we can just do the
“We’re gonna score 130 points tonight. Can you?” thing.
Brooks, Martin, Budinger, Scola/(Jefferson), Yao – How, exactly, do you stop that?
I think we need a defensive center (who is above 6’10" – sorry Chuck) and a biggish combo guard who can D up. (Llull?)
Then you can run – Lowry/Combo Guy, Combo Guy/Ariza/Jeffries, Battier/Ariza/Jeffries, Hill/Jeffries, Yao/Denfensive Center. Not a ton of scoring, but not at all easy to score upon either. I am assuming that the fairly promising work I saw from Hill will get better. He can be an excellent defender and defensive rebounder.
I have to say (with the usual tiresome and painful) Yao caveats, that I’m tremendously excited about next years Rockets. Tremendously. We got one of the best scoring SG in the league, and certainly one of the most efficient AND we picked up the #8 draft pick in Hill. Wow. I love Landry, and missed him but that’s great. This is a loaded Rockets team, with very minor moves.
"Each in turn... volunteered his suggestions, his invaluable suggestions."
Rolling the dice
I suspect the Rockets are going to be pretty quiet this off-season other than at the draft and re-signing Scola and Lowry. Since the end of the Playoffs last yr the Rockets have added 7 new players and will likely add a drafted player-or two,maybe a modest FA signing.
Morey and Adelman will most likely want to see how all the new pieces fit before making another move. All of their trade pieces for this summer will still be trade pieces at the trade deadline. That’s when I expect the big move to be made. W/half the season in the books the team will know what the weaknesses are and who knows who will be available in Jan/Feb?
If the Rockets wait til the next trade deadline all the FA's will be signed already & they'll miss out on Bosh.
You can bet this will be a busy off season if Morey wants Bosh which let’s face it, he does badly. I expect anything but a quiet off season.
Is Brendan Haywood a FA this year
He’d be the perfect combination to Yao
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
Yes he is...
Oh man, I would love to see him on our bench if he’s not too expensive. I wonder how much his going rate will be?
IMO. Or possibly
Making a trade for a guy like Chandler? Horrible contract and all.
The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun
Interesting
He’s actually a decent fit. And you will get him for partial MLE at this point
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Timberwolves fan opinion...
Darryl Morey said on the BS Report mid-season that there are 2-3 in the league that are supremely undervalued by their current teams. I’ve long been convinced that one of these players is Kevin Love, who spent the season firmly in Kurt Rambis’ doghouse. As someone that values both advanced statistics and Kevin Love, this prospect terrifies me…
An example trade would be: Love and Sessions for Brooks and Ariza. I hate this deal for the Wolves. I wonder what Rockets fans would think?
never going to happen
we love brooks…don’t know enough about Love and Sessions to think we want to give Brooks up.
As for Ariza, I think he is movable for the right combo but we would have to have a defensive stopper and good shooter in his place. I dont think Love or Sessions gives us that at all.
I also think both Ariza and Brooks are much better players at their positions than Love and Sessions are at theirs
Brooks and Love?
I’m actually surprised that people consider Brooks, essentially a scoring point guard (but a great one), is considered as valuable as Love, a cerebral player and elite rebounder with a great contract.
I would imagine it depends on need, but there are few players who are as good as Love at what he does (his Defensive Rebounding Rate was something like 4th in the league this year). I’m not trying to sell AB short, but if we moved him for a player of Love’s caliber (and contract), I would consider it a pretty sweet haul.
I can see people arguing against that as well though. After all, Love is undersized, slow, can’t block shots, and has issues posting up anyone over 6’10.
I don’t imagine your proposed deal happening just because it doesn’t seem to fill a need for either roster. You have a point guard going to a roster full of point guards, and a slow big that can’t block shots going to a roster with Yao and Scola. Both those guys can and should be playing 30+ minutes on good teams, and it wouldn’t happen either way with this trade.
Still nice to know Brook’s value in non-Rockets eyes.
-—-
PS. Ariza’s good. You wouldn’t know it by his stats (or watching him offensively for the first 50 or so games), but he is. I promise.
As I stated below...
Darryl Morey offered Aaron Brooks AND Shane Battier for Ricky Rubio. Either he loves Rubio, or doesn’t value Brooks nearly as much as some Rockets fans. Maybe a combination of both.
A few other quick notes…
1. Jonny Flynn is a terrible fit for Kurt Rambis’ triangle offense. We need a point that can make a shot from long distance. Enter Aaron Brooks.
2. Kevin Love might be undersized, but he’s a pretty good defensive player if you value rebounding (and the ending of a possession) as a defensive skill. You’re right in that he’s not going to block a ton of shots, but he’s smart and if he has Yao behind him he’ll look a lot better. He’s incredibly strong as well, so maybe Chuck Hayes could teach him a thing or two.
3. Agreed that Ariza is a lot better then he looked last year. He’s the type of guy that looks much more appealing as the 4th/5th option rather then the 2nd/3rd option. How did he look once Kevin Martin joined the Rockets?
No argument
Love is a top caliber rebounder. Its just tough to see him playing effectively next to Yao. I can’t see us trading one of two PGs we have on our roster for that.
A couple of things
1. I never saw anything that said Battier and Brooks for Rubio, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but I never saw that. Doesn’t seem like a Morey trade and frankly I don’t think there is a chance in hell that Minny would turn that down
2. You don’t trade a starting level NBA PG, an easily upper 25% guy and really better for a guy that will be your back up PF
3. The Rockets could get Love for less than that, so why would they do it? I mean, Ariza, sure, but again, he’s our starting SF next year at this point, why trade a starter for a backup unless they are really at a need spot?
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
re: Rubio
Nobody is getting Rubio from Kahn. He’s staked his career on that kid, for better or worse. I’ve followed it all since Kahn drafted him and Kahn’s never wavered and (if you dig enough) Rubio’s never said he wasn’t coming. Don’t need to get into all of it here other to say that Kahn is all in on Rubio, to the point where if we land the number one pick this year it will be Turner and not Wall.
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
I think Turner is going to be better anyway
Not that Wall won’t be damn good himself
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
I really like Love
You do the Love deal because he gives you a more versatile version of Luis Scola for the next 8-10 years. I may venture as far as to say that he would be just as good if not better than Scola if he got solid minutes/was put into a system such as Adelman’s.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
21 years old
He’s got time to learn.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
I like him
But I just don’t see him as ever being as good as Scola on that end. Granted, he’s a better defender and rebounder now, but that’s not the point
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Here's a link
Mitch Lawrence in Sunday’s Daily News reported that the Wolves turned down a deal with the Houston Rockets that would have resulted in Aaron Brooks and Shane Battier headed to Minnesota for Rubio.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/knicks/2009/06/knicks-dont-have-knack-to-land.html#ixzz0mQOnlFcV
I appreciate the link
That said, it still likely didn’t happen. Though I’m not saying it wasn’t possible. It was widely speculated that Battier would be gone last off season (a lot by me to be fair). But I like to think we’re pretty close to rumors and we never heard anything near that. We did hear Brooks, but it was packaged with a number 2 to go with it.
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Kahn also mentioned this specific deal in interviews
He was happy to talk about turning down the deal. At the time he was getting grilled (rightfully so) for taking Rubio and Flynn, so he was leading a “Rubio Trade Value Awareness” campaign. I’m not being sarcastic though when I say that Kahn could very well have been lying.
Good info
Thanks for that. No idea why that didn’t come up here at the time.
I’m sorry you guys have to deal with that at GM. And I also apologize that if he was saying what DM was offering in the press then he is now in Morey’s sites and will likely be bamboozled soon
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Al Jefferson Trade
If we don’t trade Kevin Love, then we’re definitely trading Al Jefferson this season. Although I’m not sure if the Rockets and Wolves would be a good match. Here’s a 3 way deal that might work…
Houston Gets:
Al Jefferson
Minnesota Gets:
Bynum
Vujacic (Salary Dump)
Jeffries (Salary Dump)
Lakers Get:
A. Brooks
Shane Battier or Ariza
Ryan Gomes (non guaranteed contract)
Minnesota’s #16 pick
I think the Wolves do this trade in a second. Rambis loves Bynum. A 7 footer evens out the roster. We’re essentially using 9 million in cap room to make it happen with Jeffries and Vujacic, but it’s not like we were wooing a top free agent this year anyways.
I also think Houston does this deal. I’m not sure if Morey values Ariza or Battier more, but it seems like Battier has been on the trade block. Even though AB has been a high volume scorer this year by necessity, Morey had offered AB and Battier for Rubio last off-season. So he can’t value him THAT much. Trading those two while dumping Jeffries’ one year contract seems like a good price to pay for one of the best post scorers in the league. While his defense isn’t great, pairing him with Yao, Chuck Hayes, or Scola would be dynamite.
The Lakers are the toughest one to gauge. They’re essentially trading Bynum for depth, but if we’ve learned anything about them from the playoffs this year it is that their bench sucks. I think they need to mix it up. Brooks is the perfect point guard for the triangle offense. Battier is a great role player. The #16 pick could help them as well. And they could keep Ryan Gomes, or cut him (non-guaranteed salary). If they cut Gomes, then they end up cutting 9 million off their salary cap and another 9 million off their luxury tax payments. Freeing them up to sign a mid-level exception (Brendan Haywood) type player this year.
Brooks
The Rockets aren’t trading Brooks unless they are getting a starting PG somewhere. Sorry.
Blakely,
You would prob be better off trying a 3-way trade w/LA and Toronto. LA gets Bosh,Toronto gets Al(and a First or two) and Minn gets Bynum.
Morey might see PG as a glut on the market
and make such a move, might he not? Last year’s draft class definitely made for a very different point guard market. Ramon Sessions and Andre Miller could tell you. Morey can think that way, if any GM would.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
proposed trade
I don’t think we need Al like we need Brooks and Ariza/Shane.
Shane may be tradeable but if we resign Scola I don’t see what the advantage of getting Al is?
Scola and Yao work well together and Scola is basically on par with Al so what is the advantage in giving up Brooks?
Do Al and Scola split minutes? Why give up Brooks for redundancy. We need defense more than offense.
Without a doubt LA wants a new PG…unless they are crazy…but they can’t have Brooks, he is ours.
If there is a glut of PG out there maybe we do the trade and give Lowry the starting job but that is going into a lot of ifs…
I think Al stays out of Houston, period. he is not an upgrade from Scola and will cost us too much to get. I think we only do this massive trade stuff until the trade deadline, unless we can trade for someone of Bosh’s caliber. Al is not Bosh’s caliber.
That's treating Jefferson as a superstar
And he’s not. While he certainly has that potential, he’s not there yet. The Rockets are giving up more here than the Wolves got back (at the time) for KG.
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Throw in Ricky Rubio though
And you might get Morey to think about it
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
al jefferson could be on the rockets radar but bosh is a long shot
why not package brooks, battier, andersen, scola (sign n trade)and 14th pick for al jefferson and jonny flynn and sign brad miller, von wafer, and travis outlaw in the off-season and have a really deep team and you let budinger and outlaw compete for the sf off the bench.. line-up
flynn/lowry
martin/wafer/taylor
ariza/outlaw/budinger
jefferson/hill/jeffries
yao/miller/hayes
WAY TOO MUCH GOING ON THERE
love shane but he is getting older and probably is good to get someone younger for him…and his value is still high as a leader for a younger team (OKC and Portland come to mind)
Scola and brooks then for Jefferson and flynn? I don’t know eithers game very well but this seems like just moving pieces around for the sake of moving them around to make Minn happy.
The value of Scola and Brooks is more than just their skills, they know the system and know how to work together with Yao and the rest of the getalong gang.
That and it still seems to me that Brooks has lots of more upside still and Scola, with his non-Manu sort of playing, may have a long life to his consistent ass kicking ability
Although I'd like Miller as a back up he's said there are a small handful of teams he'd go to but would like to stay put.
I think Lowry would start over Flynn. I’d like to add Outlaw this off season as a FA the MLE should do it. Don’t really care if Andersens moved cause his D is nonexistent & Von isn’t in Sleepy’s good graces since the “incident”. But I’d be hesitant to move Scola for Al ONLY cause of injury, other than that I like big Al.
I said this in December...
Al Jefferson will be a Houston Rocket. He’s a great young player, and it wouldn’t take as much to get him as it would Bosh.
I believe you are right on the price to get Al, alot cheaper than Bosh. I'd like either one, if Bosh goes somewhere else
I believe Jefferson is a target for Morey. From what I’ve seen he’s a pretty hard worker, KILLS Yao every time they play and he seems like a Scola type forward in his work ethic!
Jefferson's Health and Future
As a Wolves fan, I imagine your biggest concern would be Jefferson’s health, and its probably our biggest concern as well. Let me give you a little background.
Before Jefferson went down with the knee injury last year, the Wolves had just completed a 13-4 January under new coach McHale, and were excited by the future. Jefferson’s injury was supposed to keep him out until the following January, but with his killer work ethic (those post moves just don’t appear by magic), Al was on the floor in pre-season. You could tell though he came back too soon, because his lateral quickness wasn’t there, and a player who was already only a mediocre defender lost even more. His numbers (and defense) improved every month as he got healthier, (you probably remember his 26 RB performance against the Rockets in double OT on January 13). Even with a slow start, he finished with a respectable 9.3 RPG, 17.1 PPG.
Wolves GM David Kahn has pointed out this has been Jefferson’s most difficult season, and it extends beyond the injury and the rehab. Jefferson only had four players return from last year, and the team got younger. He lost McHale, got a new GM, and a new coach. The whole team had to learn a new system (triangle) behind a rookie PG, and its not necessarily a system that suits him. Jefferson had the DUI, and his grandmother that raised him died as well. He missed zero games this season due to injury. This will be Jefferson’s biggest off-season.
Many people expect that Jefferson will be traded, and MIN will advance with the younger Kevin Love. I’m not so sure that will happen. Al’s two previous seasons were epic (21/11, 23/11), particularly for a player that hadn’t turned 25. He is a big man who is a Top 4-7 rebounder, and arguably has the best low-post game in the NBA, and that is a rare commodity that makes him hard to replace. Love is a historic rebounder with some great other skills, but if one of them is traded, I don’t think its a slamdunk that its Al.
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