Tainted Love
by NickHetherington on Jul 2, 2010 2:04 PM CDT
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PrintIf LeBron James leaves the Cleveland Cavaliers this summer the rest of his career will be tainted. It is a strong statement, but I truly believe if James leaves his home state, fans for the rest of his playing time will say he couldn't win it alone.
All of the stars go through their respective ups-and-downs. If James leaves it will be even more evident that he isn't as great a player as people originally thought. Let's take a look at his superstar predecessors.
First and foremost you go to the greatest player who ever stepped onto the court. MJ didn't win a championship his first year in the league. In fact, he had won four straight NBA scoring titles by the time the 1990-91 season had started. He had also been the NBA's Rookie of the Year in 1985, been named to the All-NBA First Team four straight years, and had even been recognized on the NBA All-Defensive First Team for three straight seasons. Oh and throw in a NBA MVP for the 1988 season. He was beginning to be plagued by the Wilt Chamberlain curse when he won his first championship in his seventh season. In his first finals appearance, he went off against Magic Johnson and the Lakers averaging 31.2 points, 11.4 assists and 6.6 rebounds in a 4-1 series victory.
Let's compare that to LeBron at this point in his career. In seven seasons, he was named the NBA rookie of the year, is a two-time MVP, NBA scoring champion, two-time selection to the First-Team All-NBA, and four time All Star. Eerily similar aside from the fact that he has led the Cavaliers to one NBA Finals appearance where he averaged 22 points, 7 rebounds and 6.8 assists. In that series though, the San Antonio Spurs swept the Cavs.
MJ is not the only superstar who stuck with one team despite ups and downs throughout his career. Ask Laker stars Kobe Bryant and Magic Johnson. After winning the NBA Championship in his first season, Johnson went through a roller coaster ride of emotions squaring up against Larry Bird and the Celtics three times in the Finals in the 80's. Bryant couldn't escape the shadow of Shaquille O'Neal, constantly having to ask the question: can I win a championship without him? Kobe now has back-to-back rings without the Big Aristotle and has immersed himself into the discussion of who is the greatest Laker of all-time.
Rockets fans can recite the story of The Dream (I don't count his last season in Toronto) in their sleep. After an improbable run to the Finals in the 85-86 season, Hakeem and the Rockets lost a hard fought series to Larry Bird and the Celtics in six games. The Dream didn't give up, even though it took him eight seasons to get back to the Finals. In 94, he was the unanimous choice for Finals MVP after averaging 26.9 points, 9.1 rebounds and 3.9 blocks per game in the Rockets' 4-3 defeat of New York. He was the first center to win the award since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1985. He brought home back-to-back championships to the city of Houston, and in the 95 series, Hakeem averaged an astounding 32.8 points, 11.5 rebounds, 2.0 blocks and 2.0 steals per game to lead the Rockets to a sweep of the Orlando Magic. He established three NBA Finals four-game series records including most points (131), most field goals made (56) and most field goals attempted (116). Remember, he did this going against a young Shaq.
Some other stars that stayed with the same team despite going through a lot of roadblocks before winning their first NBA championship include, Bird, David Robinson, and Isiah Thomas.
Even casual NBA fans know how cursed Cleveland is as a sports city. Their last championship came in 1964 when the Cleveland Browns beat the Baltimore Colts. The Indians threw away the 1997 World Series and the Cavs have had their fair share of heartbreaks. Starting with ‘The Shot' that put MJ on the map going all the way up to being swept by the Spurs in 06-07. Not to mention having the best record in the NBA the past two seasons, only to result in early playoff exits. You can check out another more in-depth article on the topic at Heart of a Champion. If the best player in the league leaves the Cavs without winning them a ring, it will put that much more hurt into a city that can't take much more heartbreak. The King has not earned his crown, and if he skips out on the Cavs it could forever hurt his brand he has built up so much. All I am ‘Witnessing' is a star admitting to the fact he can't win it on his own.
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How many times
can I rec an article? I’d like to rec this about 5,000 times.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
Agree and disagree.
I’m borrowing from Simmons, but I think it depends where he goes that affects his legacy.
Lebron at this point is either going to Chicago, Cleveland, or New York. If he goes to Chicago, I think he can play the card of “Cleveland didn’t create a great supporting cast and I want to win, so I’m going to go play with Rose and Noah and win a championship.” and while Cleveland fans obviously won’t like it, it’s easier to swallow.
He goes to New York? Frankly, if Lebron James goes to New York, I would view him as a top five on most disgusting players alive and would join such prestigious company as Boozer and Howard. It would show that ultimately, he doesn’t care about winning. He cares about chumming around with celebrities, having a good time, making money and having fancy ceremonies over playing the game. And that would be disgusting – to have all the talent in the world, and waste it.
Minnesotan Rockets fan
completely embracing your view of howard and putting lebron in it
being hip and funny and not driven with that much talent is sad
Are you serious? What is this ridiculous Dwight hate. Sure, he doesn’t have a killer personality and is chilled instead but that doesn’t mean he isn’t an amazing player.
He has NO touch around the rim. He misses open layups simply because he has no touch. That’s like saying Rondo sucks because he doesn’t have a jump shot like other PGs and ignoring whatever else he does.
Dwight averages 20 ppg on 60% shooting. How can you call him ineffective? He’s easily the most valuable defensive player in the league by far. With him not dominating, the Magic completely sucked against the Celtics.
In this day it’s tough for a post player to completely take over offensively anyway. He’s no Hakeem or Duncan offensively but he’s damn goopd.
by VBG on Jul 3, 2010 7:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Im pretty sure John P is referring to Dwight Howard
by VBG on Jul 3, 2010 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
true...I was
Howard is not a guy you want in a clutch situation, which makes him very good not great
his D is great but whether it is his personality or bad coaching, the Magic can’t seem to be clutch.
Well I guess there were with Turk, or maybe that was a fluke. I just think the guy is missing some of the real drive that makes someone clearly memorable as a player.
I've always been of the belief
that Howard is a system product. I mean, let’s face it, Orlando’s perimeter defense is abysmal. As a result, Howard has to clean up all the trash that gets to him, which almost certainly inflates his defensive numbers. His 60% shooting is because he dunks and that’s about it. The 40% missed are shots that he actually has to work for/attempt to create for himself. Get him more than 8 feet from the basket and he’s as lethal as a newborn kitten. It’s sad. That many years in the league and he hasn’t developed squat for offensive game.
I’m not a huge Howard fan, seems more intent on just giggling and having a good time on a team that needs him to be relevant but can really only force other teams to run into his defensive presence. The main reason the Magic come across as dominant is because they’re in the east. It’s like beating the hell out of a bunch of 6 year olds and attempting to call yourself a BAMF.
Flame me at will.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
I would disagree. Howard is the system.
Orlando’s perimeter defense is abysmal. Rashard Lewis sucks defensively.
The Magic are top 3 in every single defensive measurement.
Seems contradictory doesn’t it if you think Dwight is only padding numbers?
Have you watched the Magic and seen the fact that other teams barely go into the paint when he is there?
Dwight led the league in hook shots made IIRC. Why are you blaming him for being good enough to get 20 PPG on easy shots. That’s like blaming Shaq for being strong.
Can I say “OMG LOOK AT CHUCK HAYES AND HIS OFFENSIVE GAME.” Some peopel don’t have the touch and Dwight is one of them.
by VBG on Jul 3, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm just saying
For a guy as lauded as Dwight you’d think he’d polish and evolve his offensive game since that needed work, not his defensive game, but he hasn’t. Also, Dwight’s game away from the rim is terrible. From watching the Magic that becomes readily apparent, even his hook shots are in close.
As far as my assertion that the magic are horrible defensively outside of Howard, it makes perfect sense. Teams won’t go in on him, therefore they’re more likely to shoot away from the interior, which drastically lowers the shooting percentage of opposing players. Dwight is a major deterrent, but there’s no doubt about how you can generally get by their perimeter defense (Barnes being one of few exceptions to this).
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
Yeah, so how isn’t Dwight amazing at defense? He stops the entire other team from getting easy shots which is what you want to do. That’s why having Dwight is so much more important than having Artest or someone on defense.
Offensively, I agree, he can’t take over, but he stills plays solidly getting over 20 points very efficiently usually. He still needs to grow offensively but he’s still effective.
For me
it’s not that dwight isn’t amazing defensively, only that I feel some of his numbers are inflated. Much like Shawn Marion with Phoenix. Inflated stats because of his job to do all the dirty work. He leaves Phoenix, they lose their defense and he shows up poorly in Miami.
That being said, Dwight is great defensively, I think given some great perimeter players you easily see his stats drop into a normalized region for a guy who ISN’T called upon to do everything defensively (rebounding, blocks, etc…). It’s not that he’s not good, it’s that when you get as many chances as he does it makes perfect sense that his numbers will be higher.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
Well no one can win "on his own"
Every superstar champion has had to have at least one other star with him to get the title.
Except one, and that is Hakeem. And that is why Hakeem is the Dream.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Exactly!
I think all this talk of tainted legacy is BS. The things that LeBron was able to do with that Cleveland team is a testament to how good he is. Without LeBron that team is dirt. Everybody knows that. He was solely responsible for making that team a playoff contender and even a finals team. If he had one more peice, or hell even some good role players, he’d probably already have a championship. I don’t blame him or think less of him for wanting to go to a team with some help behind him.
The way I see it
Switch Lebron and Kobe for the past three seasons: Lakers probably still win 2 out of 3, Cavs probably still do nothing. So all in all, I am not on Lebron’s case yet. It’s a completely different question that I can’t stand the dancing around and pre-game routines. WTF is he thinking? Imagine Yao doing this stuff – I will vomit.
"we’re a bad team masquerading as an abysmal team". - AstroB about the Astros
by RocketsAstros on Jul 2, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
No way
If Kobe was on the Cavs, they’d all be talking now about how great the Cavs supporting cast is how they got him two titles, and what a rip-off it was that they could release Ilgauskas, get Jamison, and then get Ilgauskas back. Instead, we get to hear about how the Lakers “stole” Pau Gasol, when his own team was lukewarm about him.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
No.
Just… no. That’s probably one of the dumber statements I’ve heard on the subject.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Hmm
Thanks, but then I guess my opinion will have to be that your statement is one of the dumber statements I’ve heard on the subject.
Unless I disagree with my own opinion, which would be very strange indeed.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
How can you say that Kobe Bryant...
A) Doesn’t have the best supporting cast in the Western Conference? Gasol is a top three center/PF in the league, and Artest, Odom and Bynum are all capable third or fourth options on any other team. Ludicrous.
B) James’ supporting cast just isn’t that great. Mo Williams is perhaps the most overrated shooting guard in the league. Antawn Jamison, though talented, is a fairly one-dimensional player and doesn’t fit with what James likes to do. You throw Kobe into Cleveland? Not much changes.
I’m not one for small sample sizes… but if LeBron went 6-24 in a playoff game in CLE, the Cavs might lose by 30.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Hindsight is 20/20
You may not have thought so, around mid season to the end of the regular season, but a large chunk of basketball heads thought Lebron was heading for his first title.
Now, you can look at what happened, or we can give the Lebron the “If I were on the 2010 Lakers” Finals MVP, with Dwyane Wade finishing a close second.
Kobe Bryant does have a good cast. Not his fault. He also took a cast of misfits and players who aren’t even in the league to the playoffs in 2005 and 2006.
As far as Lebron going 6-24, I’ve seen him go well 6-20 in the regular season and his team win by 9. I’ve also seen Kobe 15-22 with 10 assist, 7 rebounds, and his team lose by 9 in the playoffs. Doesn’t prove anything either way.
Before the Cavs’ flameout, here’s what was written after their first postseason win:
CLEVELAND — They’ve got more depth. They’ve got more size. They’ve got Shaq. And, of course, they’ve still got LeBron James.
The Cleveland Cavaliers have a different look this postseason.
“We,” James said, “have the look of a champion.”
http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=300417005
He had enough to win, he didn’t get it done. When Kobe’s had enough to win, he’s gotten it done (2004? Karl Malone injured. 2008? Celtics had Home Court). What’s Lebron’s reason?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
OK "aren't even in the league" is an exaggeration
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
This isn’t just about basketball. If LeBron wants to become a billionaire, staying in Cleveland is not even close to being the best option.
Leaving his original team taints his career? That didn’t seem to happen with Garnett after he wanted out of Minnesota, and then won a ring in Boston. Even Kobe Bryant wanted out until the Lakers were able to get Pau Gasol in exchange for cap space.
by goingforthecorner on Jul 2, 2010 10:58 PM CDT reply actions
I get what you're saying but..
Idt Lebron going to the Nets or the Knicks (the skidmarks on the underpants of the NBA) would exactly afford the statement:“fans for the rest of his playing time will say he couldn’t win it alone.” Going to either of those teams basically means Lebron vs. Opposing Team for the rest of their seasons.
"win it alone"
michael jordan never won a championship without scottie pippen.
“He was beginning to be plagued by the Wilt Chamberlain curse when he won his first championship in his seventh season.” …with scottie pippen in his 2nd year as a full time starter.
kobe bryant never won a championship without either shaq or pau gasol.
“Kobe now has back-to-back rings without the Big Aristotle” …but with pau gasol.
I agree with erod, lebron is a great player, there’s no reason to hate on him now…it’s foolish to criticize him for wanting help to win a championship when all the great players have needed some kind of reinforcements.
damn..
that is a strong statement! and so i’m gonna make one…Nick Hetherington, you are, by far, the most bold and interesting writer on Dreamshake.. All of your articles are fun as hell to read. Thanks for joining!
by chuckhayesALLSTAR2010 on Jul 3, 2010 6:58 AM CDT reply actions
I agree and disagree.
Why blame a guy for wanting to win a ring? Kobe wanted to leave when the Lakers sucked. Pierce wanted to leave when the Celtics sucked. Jordan constantly bitched at the front office.
Lebron needs a ring otherwise his legacy is tainted. Winning a ring with the Cavs woudl boost his legacy but I don’t think winning with another team taints his legacy.
I agree and disagree as well.
I Agree with what Mr. Hetherington says, disagree with u.
Lebron has a huge chance to be the Hometown hero, bringin a sad city its 1st ring, and instead hes gonna fuck that up by going to “the green side”..doubt he wins a ’ship in the next 3 years anyway. the next team he goes to will be worse than the cavs last year. Anyone wanna bet?
by chuckhayesALLSTAR2010 on Jul 3, 2010 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions
They might be worse than the regular season but in terms of pure talent they are gonna be much better.
by VBG on Jul 3, 2010 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
All the people
defending Lebron leaving clearly don’t care much about what it takes to build a legacy. You can say that Cleveland didn’t give him a supporting cast, I say they didn’t do a half bad job. he got to the Finals with less and flamed out in the 2nd round twice with more. If he bolts Cleveland he can say “They didn’t give me what I needed.” But it’d be a weak excuse. If he sticks around in Cleveland and delivers a title, the King will earn his crown. Shy of that, it’s a cop out, ESPECIALLY if he drags another big name FA with him. His legacy will forever be “He couldn’t get it done on his own.”
If you talk about swapping Kobe and Lebron, I think Cleveland wins a title with Kobe for this one simple fact. Kobe doesn’t let his team quit. He takes it upon himself and puts the onus on his team mates to deliver when they get lethargic. Lebron put up numbers and whimpered off when the team needed to be whipped into shape and deliver a winner. Kobe, as seen in the playoffs regularly will call his team out, push them to deliver, and really drive his team.
That said Mike Brown is also a terrible coach and that handicapped the Cavs pretty bad. I’m to the point now that when I say I have to go to the bathroom I tell everyone “I’m gonna go hire Mike Brown.”
I think if Lebron returns and gets a ring, yea, he’ll have his legacy and crown. Shy of that, he will always be looked at as a money grubbing ring chaser.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
Yeah, it’s not like Kobe quit on his team in the playoffs before… OH WAIT. 3-1 up against the Suns and he stopped playing.
People have absolutely no memory. Lebron is better than Kobe is now at basketball whether you like it or not.
I can lie
to myself too, doesn’t make it right. Kobe leads and delivers, Lebron quits, blames his team, then sulks off for ESPN to lick his wounds and tell him it’s none of his fault.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
As far as I remember
Kobe produced and directed a full fledged soap opera few years back when the Lakers were horrible and he wanted/didn’t want(?) out.
"we’re a bad team masquerading as an abysmal team". - AstroB about the Astros
by RocketsAstros on Jul 3, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
He did
but it pushed his boss to actually go out and keep pieces around him. Kobe leads by example, he threw a tantrum yes, but look what happened, he got the pieces he needed and pushed his team to the finals. When they played poorly, he got after them and they played better.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
"Lebron is better than Kobe is now at basketball whether you like it or not.'
A team led by Kobe has now won back-to-back championships.
A team led by Lebron (with the best regular season record both times) has now not even made it to the Finals both years.
Your statement is an opinion, as is “[Kobe] stopped playing” against the Suns.
My statements are facts.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
You seriously can’t compare the talent on the two teams.
You want facts, take any metric, any measurement of the two players except rings which depends on the teammates and Lebron comes out ahead.
Kobe shoots 6-24 and his team wins. Lebron’s Cavs were crushed like a bug when he didn’t play.
And this is coming from someone who absolutely hates Lebron.
by VBG on Jul 3, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
And I
am no fan of Kobe and I can still tell that you’re ignoring the intangible side of the game. Hooray, Lebron puts up stats. What does he do for his team? They don’t win, he doesn’t lead, and he gets his ass kicked around in the playoffs. Kobe takes on an entire team when his is down and pushes them through. He knows they have talent and he demands they use it. Lebron convinces himself his team doesn’t have talent then blames them.
If you REALLY want to focus on numbers, look at McGrady’s playoff figures. Statistically he’s been one of the most productive post season players in NBA history. He must have gotten far, eh? Oh yea, first round exits. Are you selecting McGrady over bron bron because of his numbers too?
Bottom line, it’s about winning and leadership and between Kobe and Lebron, only one of them fills those shoes.
I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.
Doesn't that tell you there's something wrong with the metrics and measurements?
Either that or you’re measuring the wrong things that parse out individual stats in a manner that does not reflect a players true contribution to winning?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
No, it means there's something wrong with your opinion
Use the metrics to form a better one. That’s why we have them.
by goingforthecorner on Jul 3, 2010 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I think there's something wrong with your reliance on the metrics
As if basketball metrics were science.
Why would I use faulty metrics, ones built on box score and +/- measurements? These are not the building blocks of winning basketball.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
There's a lot more than box score and +/- measurements
Please do your due diligence before being so outspoken. Here are some comparisons.
Basketball-reference: LeBron vs Kobe.
As far as the championships go, it’s all about TEAM success, which is not how you determine which individual players are better. How quickly people forget that Kobe couldn’t even sniff the 2nd round until they were able to trade Kwame for Gasol.
by goingforthecorner on Jul 3, 2010 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm very familiar with those websites
So please tone down the condescension (“do your due diligence”).
While team statistics are very meaningful because that is the goal, to score more points as a team, the individual parsing of statistics leaves much to be desired.
I have a great memory. How quickly people forget that Kobe took a band of players to the playoffs, many of whom are still in their playing primes (as far as age goes) who no longer start or play meaningful minutes for an NBA team.
And how quickly people forget that Pau Gasol was not wanted by the Grizzlies, and did not win a single playoff game in his tenure with them, which include one 50-win team.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
T-Mac took a worse team to the playoffs.
Lebron took a team just as bad as Kobe’s to the NBA finals.
by VBG on Jul 4, 2010 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Do you realize your last paragraph regarding Gasol
just made my whole point? Just because he didn’t have any playoff success at the time did not mean he’s not a great player, nor should the lack of success be in considering in ranking the best big men.
Same applies to the Chris Bosh talk, along with Kobe v LeBron.
by goingforthecorner on Jul 4, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, team success is not always an indication of a leading players' abilities
Neither are today’s individual metrics, whether they be from 82game.com, Basketball-reference, ESPN, Wages of Wins, or Darryl Morey.
These are not science, they are opinions. Using the above individual statistics to bolster an argument does not make it a factual argument. Unless you want to talk about how someone draws defenses, how they guard a pick and roll, how they execute a pick and roll, how they utilize a one-dribble pull-up mid range shot, or how they manage a game, and find out what the team needs …. if you haven’t gathered, I don’t believe that these are directly captured in those statistics above… Maybe someday. Take a look at soccer – are there soccer models that can quantify who the best player is? If so, I’d like to see, because that would the beginning of the model to quantify basketball. I don’t think the soccer model would be based on a calculation of goals, steals, and assists, and simply finding a number that correlates to wins.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
You facts don't support the conclusion that Kobe > LeBron
by goingforthecorner on Jul 3, 2010 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
You are right, they don't support or detract from that conclusion
And neither do BD34’s opinions.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
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