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NBA Positions: What Do They Mean, And How Do We React To Hybrids And A New Age Of Basketball?

Rob Mahoney has an interesting post over at The Two Man Game that challenges what we think of the typical and accepted positions in the NBA: PG, SG, SF, PF, C. I would post an excerpt of the article, but that won't do any good. Take five minutes and visit thetwomangame.com (I know, it looks like "That Woman Game" at first, right?) to see the post. You need to read it in its entirety.

...(read it, then come back, or else nothing below will make sense)...

The following is a free-flowing thought process. Just so you know. I plan to change my mind a few times on things, but I think this will actually help you all understand where I am coming from.

Star-divide

Mahoney references a piece written by Drew Cannon of Basketball Prospectus that attacks positions from the correct angle: defense. Defense is nothing more than reacting to what the opposing offense does, states Cannon. A traditional offense will likely have a ball handler, a creator, a scorer and a second-chance player in the post, with the final player likely a combination of two traits. Thus, a defense must be built to stop such an offense. Look to the championship Celtics team from 07-08 as a blueprint for defense. When Mahoney references the Mavericks, he refers to them not by position, but rather by the position that they can likely guard. The Celtics' starting lineup featured five defenders of the perfect mold. Rajon Rondo, a D1. Ray Allen, a D2. And so on. The same can be applied to the championship Pistons - each player was a perfect choice to guard his likely opponent.

Take a look at the Rockets. How would we classify them according to Mahoney's standard? Let's start by giving each's primary defensive assignment, followed by two elements of their offensive game, the first of which being the biggest strength.

Aaron Brooks: D1, Handler-Creator-Scorer

Kevin Martin: D2, Scorer-Creator

Trevor Ariza: D2/D3, Scorer?

Luis Scola: D4, Rebounder-Scorer

Yao Ming: D5, Scorer-Rebounder

Shane Battier: D2/D3, Scorer?

Kyle Lowry: D1, Handler-Creator

Brad Miller: D5, Rebounder-Scorer

Chase Budinger: D2/D3, Scorer-Creator

Jordan Hill: D4, Rebounder-Scorer

Patrick Patterson: D3/D4, Rebounder-Scorer?

Jermaine Taylor: D2, Scorer-Creator

Chuck Hayes: D3/D4/D5, Rebounder-Scorer (limited to pick-and-roll layups, and that's being generous)

Jared Jeffries: D3/D4/D5, I don't know, who cares.

Looking more at offense for a second...

The difference between us and, say, the 07-08 Celtics and the 2004 Pistons? Their wings could create, score and then defend, too. That's the ideal situation. Using the four assignments given to us by Cannon/Mahoney, we run into a problem, because I don't think Ariza or Battier fits either description in its broad terms. They can score, but everything must be set up for them to do so. You would think that disqualifying them as "creators" would fix this problem, but the term 'scorer' in itself only relates to putting the ball into the basket, when in fact there are tons of ways in which one could do that. Which part of the floor do they score from, how important they are in the offense, etc.

We must dig deeper.

Rather than use positions, I'd like to try using roles. Essentially, that's what the traditional positions set out to do, but that has changed. A 'small forward' is more like a 'big guard' nowadays, a power forward can simply be a forward, and a center can really be a power forward, save for a few examples, like Yao Ming. But this is all confusing, isn't it? So let's go with roles. Baseball uses roles to name their positions. So does football, for the most part. If we were to re-do a few of the positions in football by naming an A) Primary role, followed by B) How this role is carried out, it might look like this:

Quarterback Passer

1) Pocket  2) Scrambling  3) Balanced

Tailback Runner

1) Power  2) Speed 3) Balanced

...

Linebacker Middle Defender

1) Run-stopper  2) Coverage  3) Balanced

Safety Back Defender (lame, but go with it)

1) Coverage  2) Run-stopper  3) Balanced

It's football, which isn't my forte, so we'll keep it simple. But you get what I'm saying. We're talking about a player's role, followed by how he, specifically, fills that role.

So here's what I'm thinking next: keep the defensive side. D1/D2/D3 and all that. Defense is where it starts. As for offense, I think a few changes can be made.

Instead of forcing players into certain positions based largely on their height (6'10 Durant and 6'6 Hayes throw things off, but what exactly are they throwing off?), let's get rid of positions all together and start classifying the players themselves. By the way, remember what positions really are? It's where you are positioned on the field.

In football and baseball, everything is set in stone. Receivers line up *here*, the running back lines up *here*, etc. The wildcat is starting to change this way of thinking, which is a whole different topic, but for the most part, that's what the NFL is like. Baseball is the same way: second baseman stands *here* near second base, catcher sits *here* and catches the pitch. The only movement outside of positions we've seen in baseball is when a shift is in effect, when a team places three people on the right side of the field when David Ortiz is at bat. But in these two sports, players are supposed to line up and play from a particular area. Their position is based literally on where they play.

In basketball, as stated, we tend to go with height because you'd ideally think that a small person would not play much in the paint and a tall person would. However, unlike in baseball or football, players of all shapes and sizes can roam around wherever they want. Defensively, we solve this problem because we can classify based on what kind of opponent a player can guard.

But what about offense? What do we think about a short guy like Tony Parker who is always in the paint (I may be stretching that just a bit - Parker is a point guard and starts at the top of the key, but I think you know what I'm getting at), or a tall guy like Dirk Nowitzki or Hedo Turkoglu that likes to play the perimeter? Why force ourselves to call them by a position rather than by a natural classification? Of course, the problem with this is that there are so many different types of players out there.*

More so than anyone in recent years, I think Tyreke Evans throws a giant wrench into this equation.

LeBron should have screwed it up first. But he's not in the paint enough. He likes to play the perimeter. He likes to shoot from outside, regardless of how good or bad he is from range. We've seen plenty of tall players who are called "centers" or "power forwards" transcend their position because they can shoot outside. Dirk is one of these. But have we seen a guy in this day and age whose size and athleticism fits the point guard bill, yet he can't and won't shoot from outside, isn't really a natural passer AND he puts up good numbers?

Magic and Jordan played like this, sort of, but they played in different eras. And, holy shit, Magic could pass.

Despite its athletes getting bigger, basketball has gotten smaller. It's no longer a "feed the post and watch" game. It's too fast and too guard-oriented and too friggin' athletic.

I guess we would call Evans a scorer-handler-creator or something. But how does he go about doing these things? I'm about to lose my mind. Again, we're good on defense, with D1, D2 and so on. As for offense, dare we subscript our player-types (handler, creator, shooter, rebounder) by mentality, and therefore by usage?

Shane Battier. Handler Rebounder Creator Scorer. Low usage. Spot-up shooter.*

Tyreke Evans. Handler-Creator-Scorer. High usage. Driver.*

*I THINK THAT WE CAN ALL SAFELY SAY THAT THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS WAS TO ELIMINATE OFFENSIVE POSITIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE, SO WHY ARE WE TRYING TO CREATE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF SAID OFFENSIVE POSITIONS? In other words, leave positioning to defense. As for offense, anything goes.

If you look at the Celtics, or the Lakers, or the Pistons of recent years, look at the basic setup of their starting lineups. Each of these starting lineups featured different methods of scoring. But each also contained the ideal player to fit the description of a D1 (Fisher/Billups/Rondo), a D2 (Bryant/Hamilton/Allen), a D3 (Artest/Prince/Pierce), a D4 (Gasol/Wallace/Garnett) and a D5 (Bynum/Wallace/Perkins). In other words, only defensive positioning was relative.

The question that I will leave you with:

If there can be a D1, does there have to be an O1?

I think that's what we're all trying to figure out here. I'll let others do their best for now, and I hope this random train of thought hasn't wasted too much of your time.

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Dude, this is fantastic!

I don’t agree with Cannon’s thought here:

The Creator and the Handler have to be the same guy.

Granted, during each individual play, this is true. But on the whole, it really isn’t right.

Seriously, great stuff. And look out D3-Creators who aren’t lazy on defense! We’re coming for you (via trade)!

How many Biletnikoffs does he have? NOT TWO!

by ak2themax on Aug 5, 2010 11:29 PM CDT reply actions  

Agreed.

The creator must be able to ‘handle,’ but he doesn’t have to be THE handler. By the way, does a creator have to be a tall or short guy? Don’t some offenses go through a big man?

The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak

by Tom Martin on Aug 5, 2010 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then again

The Creator is supposed to get the ball to the scorer, so the handler can also be the creator (Tony Parker getting the ball to Tim Duncan). God, my head hurts.

The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak

by Tom Martin on Aug 5, 2010 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

True

but I assume the creator can also create for himself, too. So that does distinguish him from a handler, whose primary responsibility in this system would be to pass to scorers.

How many Biletnikoffs does he have? NOT TWO!

by ak2themax on Aug 6, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

So I guess

the creator would be a Creator, Scorer, and Handler (at times).

How many Biletnikoffs does he have? NOT TWO!

by ak2themax on Aug 6, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Does the creator necessarily need to get the ball to the scorer? Maybe more so to put his teams offense in the best position to score, which can be implemented in a number of ways. Like the hockey assist for example, which fisher is pretty good at.

by Mellowman on Aug 6, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

When reading Tom’s post, I got to Ariza’s designation of scorer (but not handler or creator) and thought “well isn’t this exactly what happened last year? We put him in the offense and asked him to create, and when he did there would be too many bad shots or turnovers.” He works best when he can cut or shoot, two things you don’t need to handle or create to do.

Bud, especially after this summer league, strikes me as having that tiny bit extra on offense that puts him into the more threatening traditional wing role.

And I would add “scorer” to Brooks (especially with Yao back, where he’ll do more spot up shooting off Yao’s doubles) and maybe even “rebounder” to Lowry (because of the way he crashes inside when Martin or Brooks are fading back to prevent the fast break).

by Moondebah on Aug 6, 2010 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok I'm a bit confused here

As I’m sure we all are. Just let me feel this out for a second. I could be totally wrong, but from what I’ve gathered is we need to start describing players based upon ability instead of height. And that we should only define players on the defensive side and let them feel out the offense for themselves (like all that D1, D2 stuff). Is that basically it?

Well what I don’t understand is the premise that we “thrust” titles upon players based upon their height. I don’t believe that’s true. I feel that players by their abilities define the position not the other way around. Like Magic, despite being 6’9" was a PG, he defined the PG spot it didn’t define him. If positions did define him he could be a PF.

Also, I don’t see the point in not defining offensive positions, because they are still going to play basketball the traditional way, and players are going to play in their traditional spots on the floor so what does it matter if we don’t define it. What’s the point of worrying about titles at all to begin with? Basketball is basketball does it matter what we call it?

Let me know if I just totally missed something, because it is late and I’ve been staring at my computer all day so I just easily be missing something here.

But good stuff, Tom. Thanks for writing this up. Makes you think.

"voted for the Jazz"
ooooh, that’s like being a pedophile – it never goes away. //grudgedave//

by ressaliance_00 on Aug 6, 2010 12:36 AM CDT reply actions  

I think we're on the same page.

Premise of height: it exists. Think about it. Height serves as a defensive indicator. You need to generally be within the same height range as the person you are guarding. Brooks struggles with biggers PG’s – it would be ideal for him to be taller. Etc.

Height is the very broad, accepted philosophy of NBA positions. I’m talking about people who watch basketball but don’t study it as much as we do here. Before I ever got nitty-gritty with basketball, if I saw a guy who was 6’10, I’d say, “He must be a power forward or center.” Now, he can be a shooting guard. This is why we need to get rid of the whole ‘height’ thing.

Here’s the problem with not defining offensive positions: a defined defense is proven to work. D1, D2, D3, etc. If you have one person to fill each of these positions defensively, you’ve got a good foundation. The question is: what defines O1, O2, etc? What is the ideal setup on offense? That’s what we are loosely trying to figure out.

Like I said (in bold): we’re not trying to re-invent positions on offense. We’re merely trying to figure out what works, if there can be a precedent. I don’t care what you call these “new” offensive positions. But it would be nice to have SOME sort of definition.

Clearly, I don’t know the answer, since I didn’t actually provide one.

But good questions.

The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak

by Tom Martin on Aug 6, 2010 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh ok gotcha

Basically height serves as the indicator-defensively. But offensively it doesn’t necessarily. (Unless you’re Chuck Hayes)

So let me run this by you. If Lebron James decides to play point guard next year for the Heat, does he in turn guard the PG on the other end of the floor. I say not. So I suppose this scenario backs up what you and the author are saying. That on defense Lebron would be dictated by height/strength but on offense he can “do his own thing.”

Although in this scenario he wouldn’t technically be playing PG he would be a Handler, Creator, Scorer and Rebounder. Although now that I think about it, he probably won’t be a handler but just a creator, and D-Wade would do most of the handling. And on defense I think he would be a D3.

I can see why your head hurts.

"voted for the Jazz"
ooooh, that’s like being a pedophile – it never goes away. //grudgedave//

by ressaliance_00 on Aug 6, 2010 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

basically, what Kobe Bryant does.

He guards as a D2, but he brings the ball up quite a bit. Your typical combo guard, but at its extreme.

The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak

by Tom Martin on Aug 6, 2010 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

but at the same time, that is why they deserve the big pay day.

On defense kobe is a d2, lebron is d3 d4. But on offense they can do everything. It makes perfect sense. Ariza is a d2-3. But his offense is way more limited than lets say kobe. So we understand his value as maybe a key role player but not a star.

by AK1111 on Aug 6, 2010 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Umm

I think we are getting somewhere with this.

"voted for the Jazz"
ooooh, that’s like being a pedophile – it never goes away. //grudgedave//

by ressaliance_00 on Aug 6, 2010 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Its hard to classify them by their roles on offense.

Due to the nature of the game everyone has to do a little bit of everything. Those at the top of the game either are really good at what they do, or they create mismatches by being good at something people in their position are not generally as good at.

Also classifying players based on height does work. I think Dirk is the exception that proves the rule. How many other guys who are exceptionally tall play in guard positions. I couldnt say the number but im sure its very small.

Height also determines where on the court you would be best suited to play.
You get the big tall guy Yao. He is best served being close the basket where he can make the most of his advantage.
Then you get the guys who play slightly further away from the basket. The power forwards.
The guys down low are the big physical guys.Its their job to muscle their way in as close to the basket as possible to give themselves easy shots.

Up top you have the guards. Their responsibility is to be good shooters as they are futher away from the basket. They should also be good passers as they dominate the ball more. They dominate the ball more because the ball starts out on the outside and you have to work your way inside. These guys tend to be the smaller and faster types as they get more space to work in and creating space is the name of the game. I think the guards are very interchangeable. Many shooting guards are good at creating openings and passing while many point guards are great shooters. I kinda group both the guard positions together.

The small forward im putting in a class all of his own. Hes a swiss army knife who can move inside and play there or move out and give everyone the space they need to work. The sf is kind of the odd man out. Not tall enough dominate inside and quick enough to play guard he is instead a good combination of both.

I dont think that a team necessarily needs to be set up exactly this way but its the optimal solution for the majority of players on both offense and defense.
You could have a bunch of guys who are all really tall. thats great but then the paint is going to be way too crowded and the guards on the opposing team are going to have a field day blowing right past you. And spotting up for open looks.

You could have a team of all guards but then there isnt enough ball time for everyone and on defense you absolutely get torn apart.

So i guess when you build from the center out the 5 current positions are just what make the most sense. At least they do to me. It helps when you give each player certain responsibilities because then it allows you to put the pieces together for something better.

by AlDe2356 on Aug 6, 2010 12:57 AM CDT reply actions  

Well
Also classifying players based on height does work.

On defense it does. You need to be able to body someone up, or else you’ll simply get overpowered, unless you’re Chuck Hayes or Craig Smith and have a low center of gravity and enough body mass to hold your own.

On offense? There are plenty of players who play outside of their presumed position. Why should shooting guards have to stay around the perimeter? Ideally, that’s where they will start, but plenty can get points in the paint and get to the FT line.

The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak

by Tom Martin on Aug 6, 2010 1:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Its a fluid game

No player stays in a certain designated area.
But guards on the whole tend to spend the majority of their time on the outside.
And Yao does come out for pick and rolls but he too spends the majority of his time inside.
The thought of yao trying to make plays from the 3 point line scares me.

by AlDe2356 on Aug 6, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

So defensively keep the positions. But offensively don’t because offensive games are too versatile?

by VBG on Aug 6, 2010 2:10 AM CDT reply actions  

On the game getting smaller

While its true player are getting bigger, i think we have hit a evolution limit. 6 ft was perfectly acceptable for 1, now its undersize by at least 2in, we can project that all the way to the 4 who are ideally 7ft now, but when you go to 5, its not possible to have athletes much taller than 7ft , it took basically a genetic exp to make yao.
So the game changed because the position once define the game got phased out

by NVP on Aug 6, 2010 10:57 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

After reading this article

My mind wanted to explode. If I have this correct the idea put forth by the original article is “Define players by their defensive capabilities and qualify their offensive abilities by their skillset, not their size.”

Tom has raised the question as to what Offensive skill set puts you in the new hierarchy of figuring out a player’s ‘position’ (Correct me if I’m wrong, it seems like you want to talk about what skillsets best place a player at a certain spot, with the O1 O2 idea, right?).

This system pigeonholes some players but it will vary from team to team as the center of scoring and the system in place will vary drastically from team to team. The Rockets are Center-centric whereas teams like Golden State are heavily guard oriented. Therefore the idea of the O1 and the likes will differ. I would assume O1 would be the creater/handler and can feel free to include scorer in the role as well since the idea of the 1 is that they are the initiator to an offense.

The more I think about this the more my head struggles to control the explosion brewing in my brain.

I'm always right, this isn't conjecture, merely statement of fact.

by BD34 on Aug 6, 2010 11:39 AM CDT reply actions  

no need to complicate things this much

at the end of the day I just don’t think this adds much.

We all know that Lebron, despite being a duchebag, is listed as a SF….but basically plays PG (under the traditional, no brain fucking framework)…. He has great driving and passing skills so it makes sense for him to play here rather than a wing type player.
Okur and Bosh (despite for playing for the Jazz and with Lebron) are almost more outside shooting PF’s than the Carl Landry low post dunk in your face (and break off their teeth) sort of players.

I just think any category is silly….you will always have players with better handles and passing (Lowry to TMac to Lebron etc…) and those who are bangers (Landry) and non-banging big men (ie: pussies) like Bosh and Okur…

Call each player like they are rather than try to come up with some system that makes sense when there are so many exceptions that it makes any one system look silly (that and this was too much to read this morning when I got up)

by John P on Aug 6, 2010 12:51 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

At the end of the day I just don’t think this adds much.

This.

by DribbleHooper on Aug 6, 2010 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

DA's face in the pic - lol.

Don’t know why my computer hit post by itself before I finished

by .Bonzo on Aug 6, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

To me, this is the basketball position equivalent of Esperanto.

Nice idea with some sound thinking behind it… and zero chance of being adopted due to the ubiquity of the existing systems.

by DribbleHooper on Aug 6, 2010 6:53 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree

this isn’t going to be mainstream by any stretch of the imagination, nor should it be, it would just confuse people; but for us basketball fans that spend way to much time thinking about things like this…well it’s perfect.

"voted for the Jazz"
ooooh, that’s like being a pedophile – it never goes away. //grudgedave//

by ressaliance_00 on Aug 6, 2010 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Robert Horry was the Original

I believe Robert Horry started this entire trend when he played power forward after we traded our starting PF.

by ClutchFanSince94 on Aug 6, 2010 11:30 PM CDT reply actions  

Agreed

Magic was a freak of nature.

The player I would like least at #9 would be my sister’s cat, Captain Creamsicle. She does have a great work ethic and agility, but I’m really concerned that at 9 lbs., she’s too small to play safety in the NFL. She also bites way too often on play action and is easily distracted by someone waving string in the crowd. Lastly, her wonderlic score was pretty awful, answering "meow meow meow" for most of the questions- Dr. Brackish Okun

by mob16151 on Aug 7, 2010 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

What trend?

Ron Harper was a 6-6ish pg, wouldn’t be be more of the pioneer?

by AK1111 on Aug 7, 2010 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

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