Kevin Martin vs Carmelo in the Clutch
by VBG on Jan 19, 2011 2:07 PM CST
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Recently, we saw that graphic about Kevin Martin in the clutch and how he scored at a much higher efficiency than most players. He was way higher than Carmelo Anthony and Kobe Bryant.
In the most recent NBA Today Podcast (fun listens. Ryen Russilo the host is kind of a douche but it makes the show way more interesting and entertaining. He usually tells it how he sees it and has good guests.) Henry Abbott came on from True Hoop to discuss Melo.
And Kevin Martin came up
Initially, the conversation was about how stat geeks think Melo is overvalued based on efficiency stats. However, it is possible that superstars make the game easier for others. Having a Kobe or a Melo on your team makes it easier if you are Steve Blake rather than having Kevin Martin on your team.
Abbott in the podcast chose to take Kevin Martin over BOTH Carmelo and Kobe in the clutch simply because Kevin Martin through the course of the game is more likely to score when he touches the ball compared to either Kobe or Carmelo.
He also called Kevin Martin the most efficient wing player of all time.
So maybe we shoudl stop hating and start appreciating.
Link to podcast - http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/podcast/archive?id=3634017
No cursing in title. No pirated material, such as links to online game streams. Do not cut/paste entire sections of content from other websites. Thanks.
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If you got to watch Martin drop 40 a few nights back
The most impressive thing about it was he made it look easy. Everyone in the stands,(not to mention the poor guy trying to guard him), was just stunned. And then on Monday, he was cold so he just took everything to the basket. No one had to tell him to do that. We really don’t appreciate the guy cause the rest of the team has gone through hell this year. Get the other parts right and he will do some damage for us.
No.
I would take Carmelo. Why? He’s able to create his own shot. Why not Martin? He cannot create his own shot. It’s as simple as that.
And the graph about Martin vs Koe and ‘Melo is ridiculous. ’Melo and Kobe take every shot inside 2 minutes. Martin may take 1, maybe 2, if he gets the ball enough. Martin is quick, but he won’t get those ticky tack touch fouls with 2 minutes in the game.
Kobe>Melo>Martin
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
But everything points to Kevin Martin generating more points per possession in the last 5 minutes of a game.
Kevin Martin has to be used more like Ray Allen.
Henry Abbott also talked about how stupid running isolations at the end of games is for most teams. Only the Spurs really run plays at the end of games.
The Spurs are able to run plays because they execute.
That’s why they are insnae right now, execution.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jan 19, 2011 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
Wow...
All of this sounds horribly familiar… Fuckin’ A, no one wants to listen to me but weeks later when I’m right we’ll act like this is some sort of epiphany and I wasn’t throwing pearls before swine.
Anyone who prefers low efficiency guys because they can “Create their own shot” is looking for the ESPN highlight over the guy who keeps you out of these situations. All a clutch player is is a guy who is willing to take horrible shots at the end of a game that manage to go down. If you miss them you’re criticized as a guy with low basketball IQ. Clutch is something people cling to for their horrible decisions in certain personnel with a flare for taking crappy shots. These same people who cling to clutch will knock Aaron Brooks at every impasse even though it’s Aaron that has bailed our asses out or killed a run by the other team on his own, but oh no, Houston doesn’t have a clutch player on it’s roster.
I don't usually plan out my days because the word "premeditation" gets thrown around a lot in courts today.
thats a lot of anger dude...
first, Brooks is much more clutch than Martin.
second, the stat that Martin scores more points in the last five minutes of the game is a silly state. Give me the stat of who scores more in the last 30 seconds or less and that is the state I want. That is clutch.
When the game is tied or we are down and HAVE to score you want Kobe then Melo then Brooks then Martin in that situation. Martin, like Allen, are great shooters off picks etc… but their game involves lots of movement and when not everyone is in superlockdown D mode, like they are when teams are separated by 4 or less points in teh final minute of a game. On an inbounds play it is much harder to pass to Ray or Martin moving around a pick then giving it to one player like Kobe, Melo, Brandon Roy, who can then elevate and make a clutch shot.
I love Martin and Ray Allen and they are great players but they are small quick players that do get lucky but also can get stuffed running around, defenders can get around picks etc… That is when it is better to have a “clutch” player like Kobe etc…
From jump ball to the last minute of a game I would take Martin over Melo any day and twice on Sunday, but if you are tied or very close within that last minute, thats when Melo excels. That is the only time that I really think counts as “Clutch”. Well that and the furry creature the Rockets wheel out in home games.
Trust me dude
When I get a lot of shit about these assertions and they turn out to be right it’s frustrating to know that people will fight tooth and nail and praise your point when someone else makes it and adopt it as their own.
When it comes down to it, the only reason people say Melo excels in the clutch is he shoots his teams out of games and gets such a bulk of shots that he HAS to get them out of it. It’s a usage issue. Denver is built to allow Carmelo to blow most of their possessions and they surrounded him with super efficient players to compliment this style of play. He takes the majority of the shots that hurts his team, then, by virtue of the fact that he takes most of the shots for his team, has to shoot in the closing minutes. That’s just called being a number one option, not being clutch.
The sooner people realize this the sooner they can stop gushing over stupid crap like clutch and consider how a team operates and how the Anthony situation is really a product of circumstance rather than a full declaration of skill.
I don't usually plan out my days because the word "premeditation" gets thrown around a lot in courts today.
You can't just pull up from 3.
Martin’s handles are shit. AB’s are not. Plus, AB’s quickness allows him to get to the paint at will. Players guarding him 1on1 fear that, giving him a cushion, which is enough to get him an open shot.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jan 20, 2011 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
You can't compare AB's skills to Carmelo's.
’Melo’s strength is going 1on1, giving him the ability to be ‘clutch.’
Now, Aaron is a pretty good 1on1 player himself, but he doesn’t have the size to finish in the lane consistently.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jan 20, 2011 9:32 PM CST up reply actions
Who cares
when he can hit that 15 footer, the three, and still at least take it to the lane, as he’s closed out games recently that same way. Teams have to pick their poison with him.
I don't usually plan out my days because the word "premeditation" gets thrown around a lot in courts today.
The Nets just pulled out of the Carmelo trade talks
Here is the link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=6038636
Ill also put up a fansost.
Maybe Houston will try for him, but I dont want to trade for him unless we get an extension as well, I dont think its worth it at all if he leaves next year.
Brotip:
Don’t trust squat you’re reading about those trade talks. NJ and Denver have been back and forth like high school girls bickering on this whole topic with the whole “Who leaked what to whom.” kind of crap. Anything at this point I’m just calling it all posturing and stupid.
I don't usually plan out my days because the word "premeditation" gets thrown around a lot in courts today.
To be honest
I am Irish they dont play/ have knowledge of NBA over here i got into the rockets from the super famous Yao but i loved the rockets for AB in the playoffs a few years ago i loved the heart/hustle of artest the last 2 years its bin AB lowrys hustle battiers leadership/defense chucks defence and so on now with martins high scoring its pretty sexy.
Bottom line i like watchin these games my heart races yeh i feel dissapointed more often then not but thats wat i want excitement passion heart and bein the super dark horse
You have the spirit
of what a true fan lives for man. It’s not the end result, though a win is nice, it’s that journey and passion they embody to you and how they make you feel every step of the way.
I don't usually plan out my days because the word "premeditation" gets thrown around a lot in courts today.
Seriously now, do we really want Carmelo over Martin???
Granted they play different positions but still, we gotta keep our eyes on the total package here…or maybe I should say, the whole game here.
Martin has scored 10 points or more in the first quarter 14 times this year (that means he comes out red-hot 35% of the time) Then add the other 4 games that he has scored 9 points in the first quarter and you get a staggering stat that says in 45% of all games he has played in this year (18 of 40), he has not allowed our dearly beloved Rockets to get blown out from the get go by going off for 9 or more points after the jump. (That includes (2) twent-something and (2) fifteen point first quarters as well).
As for how many games Carmelo has actually won for Denver in ¨clutch¨ situations, I can´t say because I got tired of looking up play-by-play stats on NBA.com…however to his credit, I did see that Carmelo shot a whole lot of free throws at the end of games to preserve their leads…and hit at least a winning basket or two as well.
So what does that tell us? Not sure really, but at least for one thing, it tells us that we know for sure what we can expect out of Martin. A consistent player that fits nicely into the flow of the offense we run (an offense that Adelman isn´t likely to easily change just to fit Carmelo´s game).
Granted it MAY also tell us that Martin isn´t that ¨clutch closer¨ we need but I seriously don´t know if Carmelo´s stats would say that he is actually that much more ¨clutch¨ throughout the whole game…I mean if we don´t have to have a superstar fourth quarter and amazing last second shot to win the game for us because a player has helped us win the game earlier then, hey, I am ok with that. I mean, how many times has Carmelo walked away with his head down after missing a buzzer beater for the win than run off the court with his arms raised in victory?
And what would we have to give up to get Carmelo??? If Martin is not in the deal, then don´t we have to give up more young talent at the 1, 3 and 4 spots? And wouldn´t that leave us looking more like Miami than we would like? If one of our super starters goes down, then where would the point differential come from without a good bench? And besides, who is seriously gonna fill the void left at the 2 if Martin leaves? I am sure there is someone out there but who would it be?
And WHEN WE DO GET (I hope) that big center in the middle, who do we want taking those wide open threes??? Martin or Carmelo? Well I think we know the answer to that question.
Listen, I don´t hate Carmelo at all but he is definitely NOT the answer to our boys´ problems cause he sure won´t fill the whole in the middle. Let´s not get all caught up in this crazy ride. Let´s just wait a little longer and make sure that we get exactly what we need.
I asked a lot of questions I know, but we need to think and be careful about what we asked for…or we just might get it!
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 20, 2011 1:52 PM CST reply actions
oh, and here are their other stats
Martin shoots 44.8% from the field while Carmelo shoots 43.5%.
Martin scores 23.2 points a game in the 41 games he has played this year, while Carmelo has scored 0.3 more per game (23.5) in the 34 games he has played this year.
Martin scores his points on 4 fewer shots per game than Carmelo (15.1 verses 18.9 attempts) but Carmelo grabs 5 more rebounds (obviously his size as a forward) and dishes out 0.5 assists more than Martin (basically a wash).
Turnovers and steals are basically the same as well.
They both slow the game down by taking a lot of FT´s, with Martin shooting 0.5 more FT´s a game (8.6 to 8.1) while hitting at an 8% better clip than Carmelo(88.4 to 80.4%)
BUT Martin shoots the three ball at a way better clip than Camelo…it isn´t even close. Martin knocks down the long ball at a 40.3% clip while Carmelo hits his at a pretty weak 26.1%.
Carmelo plays 3 1/2 minutes more per game than Martin.
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 20, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
why have one when you can have two for twice as much...
I don’t think there is any plan to trade Martin for Melo. I have no inside info whatsoever, I just think Martin is a cornerstone in this managment teams eyes.
Hey guys.
You know there is more to the game than scoring.
Martin is slightly more efficent than melo, but his rebounding sucks.
Martin also doesnt make the guys around him any better.
I like martin but melo fills up the box score.
Historically look at it. Martin has been pretty ridiculous this year and melo is having a bit of a down year( probably because of all the drama surrounding him) but melo has had a higher per every year they have been in the league( they both were drafted in 2007) except for one.
but my point wasn´t only who is the better player head-to-head but
also how much more it would cost to get a player (Carmelo) that may be better but not a Shaq (in his prime) better. For those types of players that come along only once in a while and are true cornerstones, yeah, I would give up like Brooks, Martin, Battier, Scola and whoever we have starting on our current roster at center for today. Not really but you get what I am saying. Carmelo is not worth what Denver is asking for him…at least not to us. Maybe for the Nets who already have a supposed young center that will be around for a while, but not for us because Melo doesn´t win us a championship this year. We still need another piece and if we give up all our talent to get the wrong piece (in my estimation) then how do we get the piece we really need?
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 21, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
Uhh I guess I'd take Melo overall
but the stats this year clearly favor Martin on offense. Of course, I’d like to have both on the roster.
by goingforthecorner on Jan 21, 2011 11:36 AM CST reply actions
Mello has taken his team a lot further towards a championship than martin and that is what matters most.
Would we even be having this conversation if
we had a truly healthy Yao like we planned for this year, OR any other legit big man that was any kind of an offensive threat. We can´t forget that Martin is not playing with a full deck here. How much better would he really be if he didn´t have to be the one carrying the load every night (along with Scola)? Is it really fair to say that Melo has taken his team further when he has had a pretty healthy and solid team as of late? Not in my mind.
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 24, 2011 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
Really? That's what matters?
Not bitching for an out because the team that was tailored around you can’t get the job done? The fact that he’s responsible for shooting his team out of more games than he’s won them? Not the fact that with a better team he still couldn’t get them over the hump?
Man I have this NBA thing wrong. I forgot it’s all about when you stall out and it’s all a 1 man sport.
I don't usually plan out my days because the word "premeditation" gets thrown around a lot in courts today.
What matters is winning
That is the objective. The objective is not to get some high “efficiency” score that, luckily for Martin, does not include anything related to playing defense or winning the actual game. Seriously, BD, do you really think that Kevin Martin is a more valuable player towards winning a BB game than Carmelo Anthony? If so then why are all the teams in the NBA so stupid that they cannot see it? We see just about every team in the NBA trying to find a way to sign Carmelo right now. The Rockets got Kevin Martin for a backup PF.
I like Kevin Martin. I think we made a good move when we signed him. But to say that he is better than Carmelo Anthony because of some flaky efficiency stat doesn’t make much sense.
I would like to see how the efficiency stats of some of the winningest players compare with Martin, who hasn’t won anything. We have already been told that Martin is better than Kobe and Carelo. We have been told that Martin is perhaps the best of all time. Does anybody with half a brain think that Kevin Martin is anywhere near being the BEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME? Hell no. This is just a statistic. It is flawed.
Show me a statistic that ranks Duncan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Shaq, Hakeem, etc higher than other players and I will have some faith in the statistic. But if the statistic ranks Kevin Martin top of the pile then I know it is flawed. And anybody else should see that too.
Tell me, what other players rank up near top of the pile with Martin? How many of them have dominated winning?
It's funny how
Some of us say we don’t want Melo because he is a selfish scorer he wouldn’t fit in our system and then we come back and complain about how we want Kevin Martin to be more of a selfish scorer. Please guys let’s be fair in our assessments.
Me against the world is a mismatch in my favor.
Good luck with that initiative
Martin could put up 40 a game and this board would still find a way to be ungrateful.
I don't usually plan out my days because the word "premeditation" gets thrown around a lot in courts today.
I'd take Carmelo
Over Martin in an instant. So would 99% of the coaches and managers in the NBA. And when you have some stat that shows that Kevin Martin is a better player than Kobe Bryant then you know for sure that you have a flawed statistic. I think that is partly the problem with the current Rockets team. We have picked a bunch of players based on statistics that do not accurately reflect the impact the player has on the court. Kevin Martin is NOT as good as Carmelo. That is one of the big reasons that Denver is better than Houston and also better than Sacramento used to be with Martin. And Carmelo is not quite as good as Kobe. Too much is being made of this efficiency stuff.
And you would be right to do so BUT...
Unless I am mistaking (not trying to pick a fight at all), nobody said that Martin is a better basktball player than Carmelo…even the original post doesn´t say that.
¨Abbott in the podcast chose to take Kevin Martin over BOTH Carmelo and Kobe in the clutch simply because Kevin Martin through the course of the game is more likely to score when he touches the ball compared to either Kobe or Carmelo.¨
and
¨He also called Kevin Martin the most efficient wing player of all time.¨
I am sure that 99% of the people on this blog would trade Martin for Carmelo straight up and not even think twice about doing it. But I think the point that many bloggers are trying to make when comparing Martin and Carmelo (or his type), or at least that is my point, is that Carmelo is not better than the combination of Martin, AB, Airbud, Hill, Twill and two first round draft picks (or close to that depending on salaries). Because if you think that Denver is going to give Melo to us for less than that, I don´t think that you have been following what Denver has already turned down during the negotiations thus far. Could be wrong but don´t see it. Do you trade all that for Kobe in his prime? Yea probably, but not Carmelo in his prime.
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 25, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
You are right
And I agree that the asking price for Carmelo is far greater than his value. I agree and, apparently, so do all the teams in the NBA. You cannot blame Denver for asking though. When the trade happens, it will be for less than you have listed above.
In the clutch
I have a feeling that the key phrase in this trick question is “in the clutch”. I looked up the listing of the highest ranked players based on the NBA Efficiency Rating. Kobe is ranked 21st and Carmelo is ranked 23rd. Kevin Martin is ranked 45th. In case you are weak on math, 45th is worse than 21st and 23rd. 45th means that 44 guys are ranked ahead of you, which means there are almost 2 players per team ranked ahead of you if you are down there at 45th. Luis Scola is ranked 35th, which is a lot higher than Martin at 45th. At first I thought maybe there was just a flaw in the statistic but now it seems that maybe it does make sense. Scola is better than Martin. We all see that in the games. And, of course, anybody can see that Kobe and Carmelo are a whole lot better than Martin. Maybe “in the clutch” means in the last 2-3 minutes when Kobe and Carmelo are sitting on the bench watching the reserves. Maybe that is when Kevin Martin is still in the game, playing against 2nd and 3rd teamers and trying to catch up.
Does effic rating translate into WINS?
After reading this post, I thought there must be something wrong with the efficiency rating if it showed that Kevin Martin was better than Carmelo Anthony and Kobe Bryant. I decided to go look at the ratings and learn a little more.
In reality, Carmelo is ranked higher than Martin. Kobe is ranked higher than Carmelo. That is how you’d think it should be, based on what you see when they play the game. Martin usually loses. Carmelo wins more often than Martin. Kobe wins even more than Carmelo. So maybe this efficiency rating is not flawed at all.
I looked at the Top 50 players to see how the Rockets fit overall. We have 2 guys in the top 50, which is about average. But our two players, Scola and Martin, are in the lower half of that 50, which isn’t so good. Here is the breakdown based on postions:
PG: There are 9 point guards in the top 50. None of them are Rockets. Therefore, it seems that the Rockets are below average at PG.
SG: 8 SGs in the top 50. Kevin Martin is ranked 6th best SG, 45th best overall. Therefore, you could reason that the Rockets are about middle of the pack at SG.
SF: 10 SFs in the top 50. None of them are Rockets. Therefore, it is likely we are below average at SF too (based on the efficiency rating).
PF: There are 18 PFs in the top 50. Scola is ranked 16th out of 18, which puts him just below average in the NBA (and he is the best player on the Rockets). Scola is ranked at 35th overall, well ahead of Martin.
C: Only 5 Centers are in the Top 50. And of course none of them are Rockets.
Therefore, based on this efficiency rating, which seems to be mainly OFFENSE, you would reason that Houston has a weak team (which it does) but the team is NOT a weak offensive team. We know the Rockets can score. The efficiency rating indicates a weak offense but we know the offense is not weak. So what gives here? Am I missing something?
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