Would You Gut the Roster for Howard?
by Texas08 on Dec 28, 2011 7:49 AM CST
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Marc Stein of ESPN reports that the Magic would prefer to receive "multiple established veterans" in any trade for Dwight Howard.
The Magic want to find a way to keep the team competitive in the event the club loses Dwight Howard, and Stein lists a litany of reasons for that. He mentions that Atlanta has recently inquired about Howard's availability, but ultimately any deal for Howard will likely be consummated with more than two teams. Orlando doesn't have much leverage due to Howard's control over where he extends.
Seems like the Magic owner doesnt want to rebuild and wants veterans (sound familiar). Rockets were almost willing to unload their entire starting lineup for Gasol. Sure, he was under contract but Howard is a more dominant player, 4 years younger, and someone you can for sure build around. The trade would include players like Scola, Martin, Dalembert and Lowry. And leave us with all of our young prospects.
Now this can work 2 ways. We get Howard and try and keep him here with the McHale charm everyone talks about. Tell him Morey is a genius and we also have his Bird Rights which equals +$25 Million is his bank account. Keep in mind that if we clear enough cap we can also attract D-Will over.
Or, if he doesnt want to stay, we can sign and trade him at the end of the season. This can also net us something great from the Lakers, the Nets, or another 3rd team that gets involved. BTW Morey is kinda good at that.
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No!!
I would for Pau though because he still has 3 more years on his contract and won’t bail this summer. It’s apparent that being a 3rd party facilitator is our only way to get an all star.
If you can feel them, they are real.
Too big a risk Howard
jets off like Artest did. Then we have lost everything. Our weakness if we have one is at the 3. Our threes are decent scorers but have not shown the ability to play Defense. We could use some defensive help at the two.
Dalembert will do well as a center here. can we attract a big name SF or SG? If so who would that be?
"Do not panic, all is well" Kevin Bacon in the parade scene in the movie Animal House
Just to put some flesh to "gut the roster"
consider Martin/Scola/Lowery/and T-Will for Howard and Turkoglu. Just to make the cash work this is pretty much what you have to do and I would guess at least one 1st rounder would have to be in the mix.
Could we do that, yeah. Do we want to, not so sure. At least it puts faces to the gut the roster idea.
they'd want hill or ppat instead of twill
they need big in return for howard
I would need some level of commitment from Howard.
Nothing huge, just that he not invoke his ETC and would be back for 2013. Then we’d amnesty Hedo and pursue someone else in the offseason. The free agent class is kind of weird since the really good moves are either Williams (at a position of strength for the Rockets), restricted free agents (Gordon, Love,) or are centers (and now you’ve got Dwight), but maybe you can outplay everyone since, you know, you’ve got Dwight now.
As long as you’ve still got Lowry and Patterson, I think you have something worthwhile that could be built into a real force in the offseason.
I have seen different versions of the amnesty clause
but the most often repeated one states that the contract had to be on the books of the team at the beginning of the CBA. The vagueness would be if that applies to contracts you trade for. As Orlando has used amnesty already, that might be a factor also.
Most seem to believe that teams will be able to amnesty contracts they get in trade.
They obviously will not be able to amnesty contracts signed under the new CBA.
Logical, and would be very helpful to us
still not sure it would be a move worth making. I am wondering if we could include Dalembert in a deal. Seems like we could but I seem to remember there is a time period involved.
Other factor is, can we put together enough parts to make DH happy.
Gonna echo this
That is the reading I have of the new CBA. If the contract was on the books before the new CBA then it can be amnestied.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 2:19 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
In that case
we are in a pretty favorable position. Many teams have used the amnesty already, Orlando in particular. That would allow us to absorb a bad contract where many other teams might not be able to. It’s still a long shot, but Orlando is looking at pretty poor options right now. It all sucks, but we might just suck less!
Keep in mind, I'm on record for calling Leslie Alexander cheap.
So I don’t think we would amnesty a fat contract because it still gets paid, it just doesn’t count against your cap and any team that claims someone off amnesty leaves us with the leftover bill.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 2:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
We disagree, and that's OK
I think Les got real tired of signing huge checks for guys to sit on the bench. That would give me writer’s cramp too. It does give us options not all teams have, whether Les wants to use them… Time will tell.
And as soon as the opportunity came to jettison those deals they were gone.
We got traded player exceptions, low draft picks, and expiring deals galore in a city with minimal attraction for a stud and no star to draw help in. I’m not buying Alexander as a guy willing to spend until we start breaking the bank for a contender. Hate to point it out but Dallas, LA, New York, and Boston all spent and will trade and continue to spend to be competitive. We’re not going to get it done picking through the bargain bin.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 2:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Remember though that Hedo probably won't play for us anyway
he will certainly be picked up for at least half his contract by another team
Also an interesting article
McGrady advising Howard to not to go to the Nets. His point was that even with D Will the rest of the team is gutted and he still won’t win a championship. He is advising Howard to go to Dallas.
Thanks T Mac.
"Do not panic, all is well" Kevin Bacon in the parade scene in the movie Animal House
All bias aside
That would be the smart thing to do for Howard, especially if Dallas can get D-Will.
I hate david stern!
If a player
has been amnestied before he cannot be amnestied a second time. We could do that with Hedo.
We also have a pretty deep draft coming up. We can get either a good center(good bye Thabeet) or a good 3. One that can play defense. We can package a trade for a chance to bump up.
"Do not panic, all is well" Kevin Bacon in the parade scene in the movie Animal House
How good would a line up like this be?
Howard / Hill
Patteron / Morris
Hedo / Bud
Courtney Lee / Twill
D-Will / Dragic
Would that be a top 4 team in the West? Other than Hedo, Howard and D-Will, everyone else’s avg. salary is a little over $2M. Hedo’s contract is only guranteed until the end of next season.
With Deron Williams that would definitely be a top 4 in the West, up there with anyone in the West
That’s a legit contender, but I don’t know how you make the money work. Lee’s contract is up after this year and he’ll get some pretty good money, and Hedo, Howard, and D-Will will make a ridiculous amount of money. I don’t see that happening unless we can get rid of Hedo.
Check out The Dream Shake.
by Patrick Harrel on Dec 28, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
I think we would get rid of him
Then you have morris slide to the 2 and have monte as a 3-4 when he comes in. Realistically i doubt this happens. like less than 1%
It depends on our ability to attract someone else
We’re in a situation where we can pretty much cut loose pretty much everyone else on the team next season except for rookies /sophomores. It’s a bit of catch 22 because you need a star to get a star with this caliber of player, but if Howard is willing to stay even another year and we keep some perimeter player like Lowry and T-Will, or someone with a bright future like Patrick Patterson, It’s not outside the realm of possibility
I still see this as unlikely since we dont have a headline player that’s perceived as a bonifide star that people see as good returns
i would do it in pretty much in a heartbeat
dwight howard is that good. could maybe even get hakeem to guilt-trip him a little bit.
it’s a risky manoeuvre, but one that would attract other FAs. it also makes sense for D12 to move to the west regardless of what team he goes to, so that he doesn’t have to face the heat in the east.
don’t think it’ll happen, though.
You don't trade for a one year rental.
I am not entirely sure why Houston fans feel like they can entice a rental guy to stay. Howard is going to boot and a sign and trade is barely going to make a difference since the terms of a sign and trade were altered by the new agreement as well.
Ultimately we have to reconcile the fact that if the Magic want to be competitive with veterans they’re probably going to get better offers than the group we’ve barely kept above .500 with as well. Out East that just pushes them slightly lower in the draft but still ou of the lottery.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 2:22 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I don't see why you think Houston is an automatic no-go in free agency
Chris Paul agreed to stick with the Clippers for a year, and you might say “Well, it’s Los Angeles,” but it’s still the fucking Clippers.
There are undoubtedly better options for both the Magic and Dwight, but it would definitely be something worth trying. If you give up Martin and Scola and whatever else for a rental and nothing comes of it, then in the end you at least have total cap freedom. There’s a lot worse than that.
I don't even know why it's being discussed...
Howard gave his agent a list of 3 teams of where he wants to go. Houston or Atlanta were not on the list. Gutting a roster for a rental is inconceivable. It’s unfortunate, and it sucks, but NBA stars can make **** piles of money away from basketball. Going to a major market will only expand their brand/image. The only reason I think Dallas is on his list is because they can win a title with him, and Cuban will market the **** out of him.
Our best bet is still being the third party facilitator….
If you can feel them, they are real.
One thing about that
If we swing for the fences and whiff, we go to auto rebuild mode and no one can blame the front office. They went out and got the best big in the game and he bolted. No one can say we tanked, we went for the best!
Yea, so instead of gettin our shit together and gunning for high pick in THIS draft we go all in this year and get a pick in weaker drafts!
I hate to say it but I’m not interested in one year of falsified relevance. I want something durable and I don’t want to scam myself into buying a heaping pile of shit and telling used it’s a diamond.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 2:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Do you not think we can flip Howard if he doesnt want to stay?
The way things are now we are not going to pick high in the draft and by the time summer is here there will not be any great free agents to sign. Im sure he would sign & trade with any team thats a contender.
You dont think Chicago would want him? We trade them Howard and get Noah and other peices? Maybe L.A. and we get Gasol. The trade happens because we will want a bigger contract.
What if the Rockets can clear enough cap to sign D-Will in the summer? Im sure Howard would stay and resign in Orlando (small market) if the Magic somehow got D-Will, why not Houston?
There is a legit business reason Howard may not go to Chicago
both he and Rose has deals with Adidas, and having 2 face of the brand in the same market isnt exactly in Adida’s best interest, in term it might not be in Howard’s best interest.
I still think we cant offer as good of a package as a primary partner, but as a 3rd party, maybe we can reap some benifits
I heard that, and dont buy it
I doubt a shoe company can influence him like that. He can drop them and there will be 50 other companies lined up willing to sign him.
You think NIKE or Jordan tells players they cant team up in the same market?
aret those the same brand? NIKE and Jordan
Nike far dominates the basketball endorsement in term of having the franchise player, competitively Adidas only has 2 what you would call franchise player sponsorships(maybe add in Duncan). and the deal probably sit atop to of Howard’s list of endorsements
I’m sure NIKE would offer Dwight a deal, but it might not be as fat as the Adidas deal
ultimately it probably is not a deciding factor against, but in the interest of the agent and the player, it’s certainly something that edges the other team higher
You ask a huge leap to back you here.
And I won’t take that leap. If new jersey wants Howard, they can afford him. Most of the teams that want him are hurting payroll and you ignore what happened last season to an alarming degree. When a guy wants to walk, teams don’t get shit for them. Why we are feigning ignorance to that, I will never know.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 3:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Whats the worst thing that can happen if he walks?
We lose our veterans and develop our younger talent? Get higher draft picks? Free up cap space?…..all those things dont sound bad too me.
Swing for the fences. Hope you can lure D-Will. If not, rebuild. No one values Martin and Scola anyways, so its not like we can trade them and get something great or high draft picks.
Pass up on a loaded draft this year?
This board fears draft uncertainty, why take a pass on a loaded draft to wind up potentially not having franchise guys in later drafts because we went after Howard like junkies after their next fix?
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 5:47 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Also, we can have all of the things you say are good THIS year,
Is this a case of ‘ok, rebuild but not this year because I don’t want to, so put it off til next year.’ that’s a bad spot to procrastinate in and opens up a vicious cycle of denial and complaints about not flipping youth for win now later.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 5:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You can only do those things THIS year if...
you have an owner that is willing to rebuild, which you dont. Doing the Howard trade would force it if he didnt stay. Morey can trick Les into this is what we need to do, go all-in and hope d-will signs in the summer and Howard stays.
And as soon as that dream is crushed, Morey gets what we can from a sign and trade, then he gets fired, we rebuild, lose games, end up high in the lottery and find our next start that is forced to stay in Houston, LOL.
by Texas08 on Dec 29, 2011 7:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think we need to follow the San Antonio plan
draft well and keep our good picks. Problem is you need to pick low to get good picks and that generally means loosing. When you look at our schedule, that is not much of a reach. I worry that if we start really badly, (and that’s quite possible), the FO goes on tilt and “does something”. If we play out the season barring someone else going on tilt and offering us a deal we can’t pass up, we should be OK.
By the way, the “really dumb thing” post below took too long and got moved down. I do not agree with trading for DH, I’m just afraid we might do it anyway.
I dont think so
If we really do poorly, there would be no reason to go for a premium FA like Howard, because the team is consist of young and cheap player, and the logical move would be to unload the vets for more future assets
Tough to call the strength of draft a couple years ahead
This draft is stacked due to the lock out. So I much rather acquire multiple picks in the first round again.
I do think whether anyone can convince Howard if not an extension, at least not use his early termination clause makes a difference, since a lot can happen in a year, and having that one guy changes the “value” of the city in attraction.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but Houston isn't a premier city.
It’s a no go for the reasons make pointed out and the fact that we already have cap freedom with only more coming next year that we’re most likely not going to do anything spectacular with. It’s a cool thought but it’s certainly not something worth overvaluing.
Why not shuffle for picks or facilitate rather than hope someone takes a lesser offer for a guy with no interest in sticking around. When you say it’s the Clippers you underestimate the allure of that city and Dwight howard. And this is from a guy who friggin’ hate Los Angeles.
by BD34 on Dec 28, 2011 2:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Well I may be crazy
But Blake Griffin is probably the reason why CP3 stuck around. It’s some what of a trend now post “The decision”. Ultimately it’s up to Howard’s decision. How informed was he when he gave his list of desired teams? Do we have the ability to sway his opinion? So far Morey hasnt exactly been great at selling how great it would be to play for the Rockets to FAs, and it’s not necessary completely his fault. We havent been relevant enough, and we cant attract any sort of media attention
That is the one really dumb thing
that I would be afraid of us doing. Having gotten close to a “big deal”, something like that might go down. Morey wanting to swing for the fences and all that.
If he would agree to not opt out?
Sure. I can’t say I would rush to get him for just a year rental.
Madame de Staël once said, "One must choose in life between boredom and suffering." De Staël is dead but there is always an alternative.
This is where the cool is.
Funny thing is
the vote above is 5 to 1 to do it. That is where I worry that the front office gets spooked when we start badly and swings for the fences. It will be wildly popular with lots of folks at the time, and if ,(or when), he bolts Howard is the bad guy.
If you get a chance at Howard
TAKE IT – you can sort the rest out later
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Pure fantasy,but Rockets COULD...
If they trade Martin for a TPE,expirings and/or draft picks(or flat out Amnesty him) and stretch buy-out Dalembert the Rockets could have just $29.5mil in salaries committed.
(Scola,Lowry,Hill,Williams,Patterson,Morris,Motie coming over,Bud and Parsons.)
With a Salary Cap of $58mil,that gives the Rockets nearly enough Cap room to offer 2 near Max Salaries.(LeBron and Wade took $14.5mil and Wade $14mil.)
Why is this important?
Because more and more it looks like Dwight and Derrick Williams are intent on teaming up.
In the admittedly unlikely event Dwight doesn’t get traded this yr,Houston could clear the space to sign them both to a Max Contract,use the MLE to re-sign Lee and still have a roster full of good young talent and Scola. Lowry would likely get traded for a smaller contract and/or draft pick. Llull could come over as well.
Howard,Hill,Motie
Scola,Patterson
Bud,Morris,Parsons
Lee,T-Will
Williams,(Lowry?),Llull
Knicks pick.
And before the season it was Paul and Howard.
So really when the eb and flow of who dwight is gonna play with finishes I think he, like others, just wants a strong team for a shot at a title.
by BD34 on Dec 30, 2011 8:21 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I think to be realistic about Howard
is to realize that he wants to be on a contender, and a contender is defined as ‘could beat the heat’, realistically the Rockets couldn’t if we gutted our roster. Even with all our guys right now i think it would be a stretch. Our hope would be in that our bench is as good as some starting lineups in the NBA. with lee, ppat, hill and sammy coming off the bench we would be good but im not sure if it would be good enough.
I suggest Howard go to the clippers
and form the Anti-Heat, with their strength being the Heat’s relative weakness, that’d be kind of fun
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