NBA Draft Notes: Do The Houston Rockets Desire Themselves A Donatas?
Yesterday, the blog formally introduced Donatas Motiejunas, a known Houston Rockets draft target. Today, with the help of a few mainstream basketball writers, we'll take a second look at the seven-foot European sharpshooter.
When we think of mock drafters, we rarely think of the Houston Chronicle's Jonathan Feigen. That's no accident, either: Feigen has never appeared to be one for mock drafts and has generally shied away from playing the Internet's most popular pre-draft game. Nevertheless, Feigen released his first mock Sunday evening, and speak of the devil, there sat Donatas Motiejunas at number fourteen.
Feigen has always appeared to understand the mindset of the Rockets' brass, and as such, I've long considered his scoop to be as good as any available. In keeping with his normal routine of dispelling Internet rumors, Feigen prefaced his mock with a noteworthy, yet rather widely-known disclaimer:
When it comes to the Rockets, predictions are particularly dicey because they absolutely refuse to consider need. That is central to their draft philosophy.
NBA rosters change so rapidly, it makes little sense to draft players to fit needs that might not exist by the time that player is ready to help.
Upon reaching the end of his mock lottery, Feigen narrowed his choice for Houston down to Chris Singleton and Motiejunas, but ultimately chose the mohawk over the headband. Here's why:
For several versions of this mock draft, I had the Rockets taking Chris Singleton, who fits their need for a stronger small forward. I won't compare him to Gerald Wallace, whom the Rockets tried to acquire at the trade deadline, but he does seem a bit like Wallace when he entered the NBA after one college season. Singleton could be the pick at 14, could go several spots sooner and like most of the mid-first round picks, could slide.
In the end, I thought the Rockets are more likely to choose someone that does something great, rather than a more versatile player that does more things well. Donatas Motiejunas has outstanding length and offensive skills.
Assuming Singleton and Motiejunas are available when the Rockets make their pick -- there are no guarantees that will be the case -- I have one question regarding the decision:
(For the record, I posed the following question to Feigen in the comments, so perhaps he will have answered it by now.)
If Houston is indeed looking for someone who can do something "great" -- seemingly a departure from last year's strategy surrounding the Patterson pick -- is Motiejunas' scoring ability significantly better than Singleton's defensive ability?
Better yet, rather than mulling over which player is the better overall talent, wouldn't a decision between Singleton and Motiejunas boil down to a desire to add bulk to either the offense or defense alone? I don't think the talent gap between the two is very great, or for that matter, easily measurable. Each's strength appears to be the other's weakness, and they don't play the same position.
With this in mind, I think taking Singleton would both fill a need and land Houston the best talent available. There would be no sense in ignoring a need-filler solely for the principle, especially if it's with a player such as Singleton, widely considered to be a top-ten prospect. In the end, regarding these two players, it all depends if the Rockets want help on offense or help on defense.
* * *
Speaking of Motiejunas, I came across the following from NBA.com's David Aldridge, posted back in early May. To say the least, a few NBA execs aren't exactly wild about Donatas.
"He doesn't really love basketball," a Central Division executive says. "He doesn't seem to appear to like to do anything that's even a little difficult. That scares you a little bit. The only thing he gets an excellent on is offensive rebounding and putbacks, and that's because he's doing it against midgets."
Said an Atlantic Division exec: "Right now, it's not even close. Vesely is a player and Motiejunas is an unknown. I've seen him play too many times when he would get two rebounds, three rebounds. He's projected in all these mocks to go top 10. I don't think so. I think he lacks passion for the game. He looks like he's got short arms. That might be a factor.
"He gets pushed under (the basket) a lot and then he reaches up. Guys are going up over him to get rebounds. He lacks fire, lacks emotion. Always has the same demeanor on the court. If you're 7 feet tall and you have any hope of coming over here you have to be, routinely, getting 10, 11 boards ... I can't get excited about him."
Well, this certainly makes Donatas sound like a winner, doesn't it?
I won't place enough value into these opinions to sway my belief that Motiejunas could turn out to be a good player, but they certainly dent the windshield a little. I've always been a proponent of overachievers, the players who show a passion for the game. It's why I loved last year's Patterson pick, and it's why I think he could turn out to be a steal. Also, for the record, the Patterson selection should dispel any potential argument that Houston's numbers-based strategy overlooks a player's mental makeup. To me, that's ridiculous.
In digesting the accusations against Motiejunas' personal drive, I think it is key to note that a player's perceived "passion" and "dedication" can sway and fluctuate. Take Chase Budinger and last season's roller coaster ride. For the first two months of the year, he looked as lackluster and disinterested as the typical Toyota Center lower level season ticket holder. And then, suddenly, he began driving to the rim and running out in transition as if his pants were on fire. He developed a consistent grit that translated into better performances on a nightly basis. Most telling is that all of this emerged following the worst shooting slump of his career.
In short, sometimes, it's difficult to really judge the mental makeup of a player until you throw him into the situation for which you are scouting him. I think it's fair to say that Motiejunas perhaps never felt the need to fully exert himself against lower-level Italian competition. For every botched rebound, he could simply turn around on offense and knock down a momentum-gaining three-pointer.
Now, if that mindset doesn't change once he enters the NBA, I'd certainly be worried.
As draft day approaches, it sounds as if Motiejunas is as sure a bet to go to Houston as any prospect, assuming the Rockets stay put. However, should a player such as Kawhi Leonard, Bismack Biyombo or even Singleton slip to fourteen in the same the way that Patterson fell past New Orleans and Toronto last year, Houston may not feel the need to move. Expect the Rockets to play the process by ear for every last minute until their name is called.
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Considering his name is pronounced Donut-Us
That’s a perfect fit in Houston, right?
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
Biyombo, Montiejunas and Singleton would all make me happy.
Leonard would worry me. I don’t know if he’ll ever be able to shoot well enough to space the floor. Biyombo can get by with little offense as a defensive big, but a defensive wing must be able to occupy a defender with the threat of a three.
Wallace faced a lot of the same criticisms for years. If we're looking to run an offense based on cuts, Leonard is perfect.
An athletic guy able to slash, cut, and finish then you combine it with proven defensive tools and hands the size of medicine balls and you have something worthwhile. Gerald Wallace STILL doesn’t have a reliable jump shot but God help us he was a prime commodity, no?
If Leonard falls to us I’m calling it mana from heaven and writing a column with nothing but unicorns, rainbows, and kittens in joy.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
If he's Gerald Wallace, then sign me up
But I have my doubts. I like him, but would rather Singleton or Montiejunas. I’d also be ecstatic if we picked Jordan Hamilton. I just think he’s going to be a special scorer. And why not just embrace our inner Showtime?
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
what a surprise
a UT wants us to draft a UT guy!!!!
I like JH too, just screwing with you for obvious reasons
I see myself as an entertainer and an Icon. Oh and C finnegan can go fuck himself
Really the only thing I have going for me is an irrational belief, that gut feeling thing, you know?
When it comes to scorers, we have those, it’s the defensive side of the ball where we’re getting torched that needs to change. At that point, citing someone as a scorer just won’t fluff my jimmies, I’d rather fix this team than try to go Phoenix 2.0.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Be careful of drafting based on need though,
If we get a guy who could develop into an amazing scorer with decent defense in a few years, and trade kevin martin within that time period for a defensive wing/big, the result would be very good, yes? Of course, that’s a very generalized situation.
That being said, I much prefer drafting for defense and mentality because i think guys who have those are harder to come by.
I've said this multiple times and I'm thinking Houston fans are letting their desire for a big man get in the way of comprehending it.
Drafting for Best Player Available INTERSECTS with need if a good small forward comes around. Drafting a guy like Montejunas doesn’t fit the BPA mold. You’re wanting to draft an offensive guy on an offensive team that needs defense just because he’s tall to put him at a position where we already have Patrick Patterson, Jordan Hill, and Chuck Hayes.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
I want him to play center
And I truly do not believe that he can’t do that. We’re acting like there are more than 3 or 4 “real” centers in the league when saying he can’t play the 5
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
I'd rather not go the Andrea Bargnani route.
I.e. playing a perimeter-oriented player at center, no matter how tall he is. It has killed Toronto over the last few years and it would render our defense useless. We’d also get killed on the boards, most likely. I like Motiejunas, but as a 4, not a 5.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Exactly what I've been trying to say.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Donatas isn't as perimeter oriented as everyone thinks he is...
he has a good, refined post game and could learn even more with the developement from McHale
by Samarth Sulhan on Jun 20, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
The point is that he prefers to play on the perimeter.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Does he? Or is that just what you've read from others?
Because I’ve seen plenty of clips with him down low. Euro ball is just different, so I don’t put a ton of stock in what someone did there being all they can do here
www.TheDreamShake.com Co-Founder and Writer
I've seen tape on him.
He can post up, but his strength is on the perimeter, and from what I saw, he prefers to be on the perimeter.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm only posting one reply to you.
Gerald Wallace has hit 32% of his career NBA threes.
Kawhi hit 20% last year and 29% this year from college three.
Considering that extremely large hands often make shooting a very difficult skill (Rondo, big men and free throws, etc.) considerable improvement is not guaranteed.
Wallace and Marion, two notoriously weak wing shooters are much more explosive than Leonard. Wallace and Marion both have 40"+ verticals while Leonard has a 32" vertical. That makes a huge difference in getting to the rim before rotation and finishing once you are there.
Basically, I don’t think Leonard is explosive enough (like Wallace and Marion) to space with penetration and right now his three point shot is horrible with a possible physical barrier to improvement.
But don’t listen just to me:
No other successful college player generates such disagreement. One team rated Leonard the 18th-best player in the draft after San Diego State was eliminated from the tournament, a strong statement even if he moved up since by attrition when several likely lottery picks stayed in school. Another executive, though he had not done his club’s mock draft yet, said he wouldn’t take Leonard in the mid-teens, the cost of not being a standout shooter or a plus-athlete. And now he could become a central figure in the selection process.
Not sure we're taking a semi-hostile approach to me with this "one reply to you" garbage, but whatever.
I didn’t call him Gerald Wallace, I mentioned a similar critique of Gerald Wallace and something that still makes him a commodity. As far as the vertical is concerned, if we’re asking him for steals, I’m not sure how many of those you jump in the air to get.
You’re citing pre and post NBA statistics but showing a 9% improvement on his shooting stats which in the NBA range he’s only 3% behind what Wallace puts up. The point stands, the shooting isn’t strong. Leonard shows improvement, how is this negative? Plenty of guys have large hands and continue to work with it. It’s not like these just grew last night and he’s got no way of dealing with it or hasn’t learned how to use them.
Sorry to reply since I was apparently only blessed enough to get one reply but I figured I should clarify some things.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
The "one reply rule" is my rule to keep me from falling into your "cross-examination-pick-apart-every-detail-just-to-argue" trap. Although I suspect you're doing it now, I've already broken my rule so I will spoon-feed you.
There are two ways to occupy a defender and maintain spacing:
1. Shoot from distance before the defender can close out; making you defender guard you.
2. Explode into the lane before the defender/big man can rotate; making your defender guard you.
Explosion is commonly expressed quantitatively by vertical jump (NFL and DEs for instance). Wallace is near the top of the explosion curve, while Kawhi is near the bottom.
Therefore, Wallace is one of the few players that fits into category 2 (occupy with explosion), excluding him from category 1 (occupy with shooting). Kawhi Leonard physically is excluded from category 2 (occupy with explosion) , thereby forcing him into category 1(occupy with shooting).
So while your critique of Wallace is accurate, his valuable commodity (explosion) is a commodity that Kawhi will never have therefore making any comparison ineffective.
So you jump over defenders from the perimeter to score? That is explosive.
Speed and strength are more a part of explosion, in my mind, than vertical leap because your leap will help you finish, at his size, 32 inches in the air, he’s finishing at the rim, his first step is the better judge, Kevin Martin is explosive but I don’t see him above the box on a dunk attempt every time he goes for one.
Also, you can call it a trap but most would call it discussion, you give me a point, I give you one, we talk about it, it goes back and forth, we both become informed. I regret that you don’t regularly have meaningful conversations this way.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Explosion is first step quickness i.e. getting into the lane before rotation can set, not (as you so eloquently stated) jumping over defenders from the perimeter and dunking. In athletic circles vertical jump and broad jump are commonly used to measure first step explosion, this is a fact.
Off-the-ball explosion makes your defender stay near you because if he sags off, you can blow by him on the skip pass and get into the lane before the big man can rotate and set. This promotes spacing without shooting. This spacing is directly proportional to your first-step explosion. The quicker you can explode, the nearer a defender has to stay, even on help side. Just think about how you guard an explosive guy help side when playing yourself.
Yes, Kevin Martin is explosive and his vertical shows it.
39.5 one step vertical when working out for NBA teams in chicago prior to the draft. in his draft year he had the best vertical that boston, orlando, atlanta, washington, sacramento, and miami saw.
That is one trait that makes excellent at drawing fouls from penetration off passes. His explosion lets him get past his man before he can recover (sound familiar?), but instead of finishing at the rim he goes into his trying-to-recover defender at mid-range and draws the foul.
I have now stated the exact same basic basketball axiom three posts in a row. Your “thought provoking points” have included jumping from the perimeter to dunk and Kevin Martin’s height above the square on dunks.
I do not consider our exchange “meaningful conversation” in any way, so I will now reinvoke my “one response to BD rule”.
Nice arrogant hand waving but you downplay legitimate issues to consider, I'm glad you elaborated, this is what a discussion is.
You might want to grow a little before you act pissy in a discussion. It’s precisely this kind of attitude that leads to arguments, trolling, and a degradation of the quality of discussion.
I brought up the idea of speed and strength being more important than ability to leap. Kevin Martin has been in the league seven years now and if his vertical remains true (We’re talking present, are we not?) then his draft measurements account for absolutely 0, nullifying your point. You can say you’ve quoted basketball axioms but I can guarantee you a quick first step based on speed or intelligence counts for far more than how high someone jumps. Luis Scola does a good job of creating space and separation and I doubt we’d label him an athletic specimen. We also have to consider you’re completely neglecting the offense to be run, use of backdoor cuts, and post up ability of a SF.
Go ahead and invoke your “one response to BD rule” but just remember, I’m not the one who treats this board like a zero sum game.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
I disagree with all a lot of this.
Leonard’s pretty gosh darn explosive. He’s also long enough to make up for the extra inch — literally, we’re talking inches — that an opposing wing will have on him. I think he has a chance to improve his shot over time, too. He’s always been a step ahead of his peers in many areas.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Hmmm
Guess I’ll have to watch tape.
And what do you mean when you say his peers? The other players in the draftclass?
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
That's weak then.
The competition he played against wasn’t exactly good.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he's as bad as his combine figures say
But I’m not sure he’s an elite athlete. People point to Marion and Wallace for comps, but I’m not sure he’s as good athletically as either. I will say that in game situations he looks very good, but part of it is playing alongside some lesser athletes. All of this is to say that I think he’s a good athlete.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 20, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Might he be rising a little too much?
Yes (he’s definitely not worth a 5-6 pick), but I think at 14 he’d be a very good value.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 20, 2011 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions
One more thing (I'll try not to talk to myself too much)
But part of the reason he doesn’t always look as athletic is that he’s pretty sluggish with the ball. In transition, his true athleticism shows. But when he has the ball in the half court, his handles aren’t good enough for him to execute really aggressive, fast moves.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 20, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I would say peers he played against AND those in his draft class.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Truthfully, I haven't watched as much tape as a lot of you guys.
But why the exceptionally low vertical and athletic concerns? I mean his vert is comparable to Lighty, Fredette, Parsons, Kanter and Singler (look at that link).
Isn’t vertical a common measurement for measuring explosion while controlling for competition? DE vertical’s and broad jumps are touted in the NFL draft as accurate indicators of get-off (first step explosion) on the line.
Yes, he obviously has a chance to improve his shot, but I think the hand size is a red flag. And yes his length measurements are freaky, but who is a long, non-plus athlete with a below average shot that has played in the NBA (the Wallace comparison is inaccurate because no one would ever question he’s a plus athlete)? This lack of a proven model makes me concerned about drafting him.
I have no problem discussing with any of the rest of you, but I have no respect for BD’s etiquette or basketball knowledge. I guess it’s best for me to go back to ignoring him.
I'm honestly having a hard time trying to counter this.
I like Leonard, but when I watch him on highlight reels, all of this is accurate.
However, the one thing that I disagree with is that he’s an average athlete. I think he’s a good, maybe even great athlete. But, being a great athlete doesn’t mean you have a great vertical.
The one thing that I think will happen for him is that he’ll be a good, maybe great defender in this league. He’s a good athlete, and his wingspan is obviously freakish.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Good defender without spacing the floor is Keith Bogans, though.
IMO he got by in college on size. I graduated from a Mountain West university and have played ball with some of the players. They are not elite athletes at all (except UNLV and occasionally SDSU).
You know who else's vertical wasn't rated highly?
Blake Griffin. No joke.
Combine measurements are one thing, but in game situations, Leonard was all over the place… in a good way.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Leonard's vertical in-game looks concerning though...
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
That's absolutely true.
All I have ever been saying is that right now in the NBA, there are two basic kinds of wings guys who can either shoot the three or guys that can’t shoot but are incredibly explosive. I don’t think it’s a sure thing Leonard will be either and that would worry me.
Wing 3P% w/1000 minutes (from the bottom)
DeRozan 9%
Marion 15%
Tony Allen 17%
Gerald Henderson 19% (maybe the best comparison for Leonard?; 35" vert)
Ronnie Brewer 22%
Jordan Crawford 25%
Corey Brewer 27%
Thaddeus Young 27% (another good comparison; 37" vert)
Stopping there, but maybe there is a blueprint.
I'm with willie on this one.
He gives proof to back up everything. The fact that Leonard’s hands are huge decreases the chances of improving his shot.
The vertical is also another concern. Marion and Wallace, guys who Leonard has been compared to, had a 40" vertical, while Leonard’s was a significant decrease at only 32".
Now, if nobody but Leonard falls to 14, I wouldn’t mind taking him there. However, if guys like Singleton or Biyombo somehow fall to 14, I’m putting them above Leonard.
BD, you were making a good argument about explosion until you mentioned Kevin Martin as an example. Martin is quick, not explosive. You also say explosion has more to do with speed, something that Martin has, and strength, something Martin does not have.
On this whole explosion debate, I think both of y’all’s viewpoints are correct. Explosion does not get you into the lane, quickness does. Explosion just helps you finish like BD said, but at 6-7 it doesn’t make that big of a difference. The thing that a high vertical does is that it puts you at another gear. While Martin gets to the basket quickly, he rarely finishes.
Guys like Wallace and LeBron finish with such authority because of their explosiveness. That’s my main conern with Leonard. Sure, he can get into the lane and dunk, but slashing is something that he relies on, and having a weak vertical is going to make it harder to finish against the tall, strong 5s in the NBA.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Just ignore this post.
I feel stupid by making this argument without even watching tape on Leonard.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQhpamVA59c
0:15 There is no explosion at all when he pushes off one foot and goes.
0:24 This is the best indicator of what I’m talking about. He puts his head down, pushes off and the guy on top gets to the same spot as him despite moving laterally. Help is set on the box and he goes up over the help. This is on a highlight reel against Air Force for god’s sake.
0:31 Again against Air Force, his most explosive move of the reel. Help is again set on the block. A half a step quicker and that’s a big dunk and the foul instead of the jumper over a guy several inches shorter than him.
0:45 His lack of vert can be seen. That’s not a Iggy, Wallace, Marion type of dunk and that’s what you have to be to make it in the NBA without a jumper.
0:55 Pretty impressive dunk. I think his length (7-3 wingspan amongst the largest ever for a player
6-6 or under) makes that deceptive, though.
I have a hard time disagreeing with those points after watching the video.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you come at him looking what he doesn't bring, I come at him seeing what he does.
For all the talk about the explosion on the first step I see a guy who makes the use of his tools. He’s banging, rebounding in traffic, sustaining hits on his way to the rim, and able to back a few defenders down throughout the tape. To me this means he’ll be able to post up smaller SFs and I trust we can work on his quickness. He strikes me as a relatively intelligent basketball player which is one way to make up for a slower first step (A la Scola and M. Gasol, they have strength, have to play smart to get their spacing if they can’t back a guy down).
As far as his dunks, he finishes, he gets out in transition, he disrupts on defense, and there’s room to grow. We’re a team in need of defense, Leonard has it. Offensively if he can back down some SFs and use his strength (That video really only emphasized to me he has strength as opposed to finesse) that’s just a match up in our favor.
Also, as for not respecting my etiquette or “basketball knowledge” I don’t know if I banged your girlfriend or something but I’m generally nice to people until they arbitrarily pick up a grudge against me.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Meh, you could be right. I'm far from an expert.
I just don’t like you and I figure it’s best to avoid you. Better for both of us that way.
The draft express strengths/weaknesses video.
0:29 Dunk after the steal looks very heavy getting up.
2:14 Tries to drive on his man from the wing and gets beat to his spot/pushed under the board.
2:46 Maned up on the drive by this dude, settles for a fall-away jumper.
2:55 EXPLOSION by Malcom Thomas on the block.
Anyway, my wife wants me to pay attention to her for awhile, so I’m stopping.
In my mind explosion = first step quickness and leaping.
Both of these correlate with Type II muscles (quick twitch muscles) which are by amount determined genetically.
I’ve never known anyone to have a first step quickness without having a good vertical.
Vertical explosion (vertical) can be translated to horizontal explosion (first-step or acceleration) using the same muscles.
I really think the correlation is strong between vertical and short area acceleration (what I called first-step explosion before).
On Motiejunas...
I do keep reading comments on Motiejunas’s ego/lack of motivation, however, we brought in McHale, a guy known to motivate his players to a great extent. It might be difficult for him to get into basketball 100% when he hasn’t been pushed yet. I feel like McHale could get his hands on him and turn him into something. He already has the shooting part down, and at 7’, can learn how to rebound if taught. I know I’m drinking the kool-aid, but I have kept my eye on this kid for a little under a year now, and if the Rockets take a chance and grab him, I will be happy.
With that being said, I want Leonard more than anyone. But we would most likely have to get into the top six to get him. If we stay put at 14, and can still nab Donatas, I’ll consider it a good pick. Remember: This draft is pretty weak, so every pick is for the potential (there are no sure things in this draft…not even Irving). Why not take a chance on the 7’ shooter? It’s not like we have anything to lose right now.
by arianbrotherhood on Jun 20, 2011 10:47 AM CDT reply actions
I disagree
A player has to have individual motivation first. What we don’t need is another big guy with upside and questionable motivation.
by mjdinhouston on Jun 21, 2011 7:20 AM CDT up reply actions
No one at 14 will be able to come in and make a difference
best case we get a solid rotation player.
We will have to make a big HUGE trade, or get really REALLY lucky.
I dont see either happening.
We are stuck in no mans land, and we might be here for a while.
At least no matter what, this team is fun to watch.
IMO its time for martin and scola to go, and try and get younger to gear up for a run a couple years from now.
At least the “Yao can still be healthy” talk has died down, because no one in their right mind can actually believe that
I see myself as an entertainer and an Icon. Oh and C finnegan can go fuck himself
If you mean no one at 14 will come in and make a difference
in THIS year, then okay, that’s probably true.
But I think history has proved that even non-lottery picks can develop into more than just solid rotation players.
you are 100% correct
i was refering to THIS draft, which is about as clutch as lebron in the 4th Q
I see myself as an entertainer and an Icon. Oh and C finnegan can go fuck himself
I actually agree with 90% of this.
Except the part when you said NOBODY can come in and make a difference. If Leonard or Singleton fall, their defense will hugely impact our defense as a whole.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I meant in this draft
people thought joey dorsey would come in and impact the defense also.
I think its hard to impact the defensive side as a rookie, especially a guy drafted 14th, and even more so in this draft
I see myself as an entertainer and an Icon. Oh and C finnegan can go fuck himself
Our defense was pathetic last year.
Our defensive stopper on the perimeter was Chase Budinger.
I think inserting Singleton or Leonard there would do wonders for us.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
C-Buddy, The Great White Hope, The Juggernaut.
Stepping back and staring at that statement reveals that our current small forward situation is a joke when Chase Buddinger is your primary defensive wing…
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Clyde Drexler
was a #14. Who would have thought Bud at #44 would be as good as he is. I like winners. People who have won at whatever they have done. Not always and indicator of success but important IMO.
by mjdinhouston on Jun 21, 2011 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions
This is confusing.
In interviews he says he’s willing to work, but now it says that he has no passion for the game.
This is a giant turn off for me. He did show his commitment by putting on 10-15 pounds of muscle, but if he has no passion for the game, I’d rather not take him.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
thabeet = no passion
I see myself as an entertainer and an Icon. Oh and C finnegan can go fuck himself
He's just a quiet, reserved guy.
Just because he doesn’t yell at the top of his lungs after every dunk doesn’t mean he plays with no passion.
Thabeet played hard at RGV. He hustled, blocked shots, and grabbed rebounds. As long as he was active, that’s all I cared about.
How did I know that he did all of this? I watched every game, something I know you did not do.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
As long as we don't reach for Vucevic at 14, I'll be happy (don't get mad, bone!)
Motiejunas, Singleton, Leonard, Biyombo, etc. all have shown an elite skill or the potential to reach an elite level with one skill (offense, lock-down D, rebounding, shot-blocking, respectively), but Vucevic is just a pretty big body who’s decent offensively.
In my opinion, the people who say that the differences between he and Kanter are small are flat out wrong. Kanter is no Dwight Howard athletically, but he at least is an adequate athlete, while Vucevic clearly is not. He’s slow, he doesn’t change directions well, and isn’t a leaper. Sure, he can hit some hook shots against guys that are 6’6", but against solid defenders, I don’t think it will translate. From what I’ve seen, when you put a physical guy on Vucevic, he gets bullied and backs down easily (Tobias Harris even gave him trouble). If you expect this guy to step in and contribute from day one, you’re making a huge leap of faith.
If you’re going to take a guy who won’t likely contribute much on defense with the first pick, I don’t see why you don’t take Motiejunas, who looks to be a tremendous offensive player. He’s been compared to Andrea Bargnani somewhat unfavorably, but I think he can be a very good player. People bash Bargnani partly because of his draft status, but looking at Bargnani in a vacuum without viewing him through the lens of the top draft pick he’s a solid player.
Well, I think his skills can translate to the NBA level,
so we’ll have to agree to disagree on just about everything you said on him.
As for Motiejunas, I think the Bargnani comparison is a justifiable one.
All Bargnani does is score. He does not rebound, and he does not play defense.
Motiejunas is the same way. He scores, but he does not rebound, and he does not play defense.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fair
But Bargnani’s elite scoring is valuable. Pair Bargnani with a Marcus Camby or Joakim Noah, and he’d be fine. He’s bad defensively, but people focus on his weaknesses so much that they fail to see that he’s one of the sweetest scoring big (in height) men in the league. Donatas will struggle with some things, sure, but you aren’t going to find any complete prospects when you draft. Personally, I’d rather have someone with an elite skill than an all-around average prospect.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 20, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
So you would take Kevin Martin over Iggy?
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think so
But that’s because I consider Iguodala to be an elite defender. I think a better comparison is Martin to Courtney Lee. Lee is a more all-around player, a good defender, shooter, finisher, but Martin is the superior player because of his elite scoring ability.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 20, 2011 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Vucevic is going to be on a higher level than Lee is,
but that’s just me.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Has anyone else seen Alec Burks on tape?
This guy can play.
I would actually really like this pick, assuming we trade Lee or Martin.
Burks has more of an offensive game than Lee, and while he’s not as proven on the defensive end as Courtney is, he’s a great athlete with a good wingspan.
I think this would be a good ‘worst case scenario’ for us. The only way to make it a good thing is to trade one of our 2s. Maybe we can re-open trade talks with Chicago if they don’t get their 2 in this draft.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
Chicago proved they have patience. Their playoff failure this year won't change the fact that they're most likely looking for a guy in Free Agency.
I doubt they’re hard up on a team with Thibodeau to go ahead and slot in a rookie with offense over what defense Bogans brings. They need to upgrade the SG position but doing it with a rookie isn’t likely and they’re not going to part with anything useful like we were demanding a pound of their flesh with Asik for Lee. It only gets worse when you consider one of Chicago’s most viable defensive lineups in the playoffs this year featured Asik.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
I meant that we should trade Lee,
but Asik did provide great defense for them.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 20, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I like him a lot
But I think he’d need to completely change his jumper because it’s simply not fundamentally sound right now. But I agree that he’d be a great “worst case scenario” player to have.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 20, 2011 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
To Tom
Don’t know if you’re allowed to answer this, but did Vesely fall to the Rockets in the SB Nation collaborative mock?
I hope people were listening to McHale
He wants to improve the team defense and needs a big man fighting under the basket for rebounds. He has the PF covered. He wants the center. Its a safe bet that DM will trade up to take one of the SF’s or a center and will trade/sign free agents for the other. Josh Smith has a big contract and the Hawks need draft picks. There are a number of decent centers in free agency or available for trade. I have always been a fan of Pryzbilla who fits the mold of a hard working smart center. He has had surgery on his knees so we might offer him a year and a player option to test them. It gives us time to see if Thabeet can develop or not. He will undoubtedly take less than he made last year so it will fit into the cap space.
That’s just my take on it. Of course if I was so smart I’d be making the choice as GM and not blogging about it.
There are a number of decent centers in free agency or available for trade.
Maybe you’ve seen someone I haven’t but it seems pretty barren to me.
The Bulls seem to be balking on Asik, Jordan will either be re-signed in LA or pick somewhere other than Houston to sign an offer sheet, and Dalembert probably won’t choose Houston (because we probably won’t overpay).
Kaman may be available, Kwame Brown is a possibility but Pryzbilla’s 31 and has only played 66 games in the last two years.
Okafor, Jefferson, Gortat or Lopez of Phoenix, Hibbert
may all be attainable through trade. As for Asik, if Phoenix buys out Vince Carter, then they will be able to fill that need on their roster and keep Omer.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Operative word is *may*.
We may be contenders in three years, Voltron may take out the asteroid belt and solve global warming, Sarah Palin may get elected president, see, realistic scenarios (Voltron) may happen and absolute apocalyptic hell may happen (Palin).
willie has a good point in that the free agent crop is very weak. Most of the guys this board wants are RFA’s with the club able to exercise Right of First Refusal which drastically limits their availability. Legitimate unrestricted free agents either aren’t coming to Houston or are just a lower priced Yao 2.0.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
when I say "may" I am offering names that have been mentioned
in rumors. Forget about the RFAs and the ridiculous money they will be offered. I have said for a while that the best way to go is through trade. So that when peoples’ hearts get broken that a certain someone isn’t the answer to the complex C position problem, consider it fair warning.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Nice job on bringing up the subject YET AGAIN where it makes no f*cking sense to mention.
Just go to a game, throw your panties at him, and be done with it because it’s annoying.
Names get mentioned in rumors, Houston is constantly mentioned in rumors just for what they’ve positioned themselves to do, are they legitimate? Most likely not. Industry chatter happens.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Nope it's actually pretty simple....
there is something you have said is going to happen because you want it to happen and it’s not going to happen and you are losing control.
If you get offended by posing rumors, you probably ought to stay away from NBA message boards this time of year.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Where are you coming up with your material?
No one brought up Thabeet BUT you and you need to stop stirring that shit up. I honestly don’t care if he’s on the roster when the season starts or not. I’d like to see him there but it’s not something to “lose control” over. You can make things up all you want but God knows you’re doing this just to troll.
Go strap on some big boy pants, get over your Thabeet mancrush, and address the fact that the common link in your trade rumors are to get a number 2 pick to replace the big man they’d give up. The UFA’s are weak this year and the RFA’s won’t be gotten easily. Address only this in the next post or I know you’re just being a pain in the dick.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
that's what I'm saying....
forget about free agents… and forget about the #2 pick. Brook Lopez for #11 and Epke Udoh. Gortat and the #13 for the 2… You ever watch Pawn Stars. Ya know when someone wants 5 thousand dollars for a coca cola sign and then they say I’ll give 100 bucks and they agree on 250? The fact of the matter here is that some centers are being shopped. That’s all. Their names are out on the rumormill and it will/should be discussed. No we don’t have a #2, but we have players like Bud, Lee, and Hill who all earn very little. Add to that the Arizona Wildcat connection with Hill and Bud, Dan Majerle being high on them, and Morey being high on Gortat. Add to that Houston has chips stacked in the next 3 drafts. It’s attainable and not in left field. That’s all I’m offering… Houston will/should make a larger splash through trades than free agency.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Thank you for responding properly to the post.
I feel like Morey may be cooling on Gortat a bit but then again he has a way of picking up guys we last recall from attempts two years ago to land a guy (Courtney Lee in particular). When it comes to the swaps on the table look at the deals in caliber:
Ekpe Udoh and the 11 pick for Brook Lopez:
Udoh is a guy who can slot in that 4 or 5, defensive player, can round out his offense, I liked this pick when GS made it. Brook is a guy who will fit in the inevitable triangle heading to GS. The number 11 allows Jersey to add some decent pieces (I’m convinced now that this draft has a lot of rotation players with maybe one or two stars max).
Gortat and the 13 for the #2:
Minnesota wins on this that they stay in the draft, can land a guy like Valanciunas (If the scare off rumors are accurate at all) or other useful players kicking around, slot Love to the 4, and run with it. Plug and play system with a chance to still draft a rookie where Phoenix goes ahead with Williams to replace Gortat.
What we have is speculation because as much as I love Jordan Hill I know he needs some work, I think he’ll be a hell of a starter in this league down the road, I really do, but expecting teams to bite on potential without us developing it is asking a lot. With Budinger, how many teams want an offense only SF? He improved his rebounding and I’d like to see what he’s got going on as the season kicks off mostly because I think he’s a trade deadline move if we get a guy like Singleton. Phoenix has to face the same decision we did this year, retool or rebuild? As it stands, Phoenix is on the fence. If Minnesota accepts the deal, that puts them on the rebuild track, if it doesn’t, it’s more likely than not they’re taking a shot at competing.
As for Lee, we saw Chicago wouldn’t part with Asik for him who was a lightly used guy prior to the playoffs in Chicago. Jerry Reisendorf is notoriously stubborn though. I think when it comes to Courtney we love him more on here than he is loved around the league. GMs strike me as wanting Lee but not wanting to give up much for him.
I’m wholly hoping that if we get Josh Smith we can still draft a guy like Vucevic and work with that. I think someone like Gortat sees himself as more than he actually is, a good, solid center (Which, as a previous post of mine explained is basically franchise) but if it means we have to pass up draft picks or something and miss out on Vucevic or Singleton, I’m not sure I can get behind it entirely when you consider the trade for him would inherently deplete our depth at other positions as well.
Their names are out there for higher stakes trades. Our window is tighter for the simple fact that Adelman didn’t really show off any of the young guys we hope to cash in on, he benched them or gave them erratic minutes which screwed with their value.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
I've heard about Jefferson, but not Gortat, Hibbert nor Lopez.
Gortat: I’m in.
Hibbert: I’m in if Chuck’s in.
Lopez: I haven’t watched him except for against the Rockets and
…..Jake come close…..
I need to whisper this….
He’s worse than Thabeet!
Robin Lopez?
please…. The guy has played 3 seasons and deserves to be out there. Talk about Hasheem not getting the proper coaching, the same can be said about Robin in Phoenix. He’s a lot further along and could be a starting C for many years to come.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
I dunno man, all I remember is the last game we played against Phoenix.
He had the worst performance I have ever seen in the NBA, seriously. Maybe I can find a clip.
are you assuming you would see
Bill Russell reincarnated if Adelman were to play Thabeet this year.
You remember a poor performance and I’m sure you do… but I remember a couple years ago in the post season vs the Lakers where he and Dudley came in and impacted the game. I don’t think there was ever the “learning curve” for Robin when he came to the NBA, like it was for Thabeet.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
It was the March 8th game. Still looking for video.
11:38 0-0 Robin Lopez shooting foul (Jordan Hill draws the foul)
11:18 0-0 Vince Carter bad pass (I think this pass went off Lopez’s head)
10:15 4-2 Robin Lopez lost ball (Jordan Hill steals)
9:42 6-2 Robin Lopez misses 16-foot jumper
7:26 12-8 Robin Lopez shooting foul (Chuck Hayes draws the foul)
7:26 13-8 Marcin Gortat enters the game for Robin Lopez
It was seriously horrible and has probably tainted my view of Robin Lopez.
by willieboyd on Jun 21, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here's a recap from a game thread:
robin lopez with the greatest start to game maybe ever. he’s committed 2 fouls, lost 2 jump balls, tipped a shot in on his own basket, been blocked on a layup, nearly shattered the backboard on a jumper, and then wasn’t looking at a pass right to him for a wide open dunk. incredible for 5 minutes of work.
*I am not using using this to try and disprove you, I’m chuckling at myself trying to remember the details from this game. All I can remember is sitting at home and genuinely LOLing at Lopez.
by willieboyd on Jun 21, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
PLEASE someone post the first 5 minutes of the 3/8/2011 Rockets game.
by willieboyd on Jun 21, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I gotcha....
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
The Indiana Pacers have discussed a trade package including center Roy Hibbert and the 15th pick for the Minnesota Timberwolves’ second overall pick, league sources said
Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/news#ixzz1PwBP2kkt
The Golden State Warriors would like to help them out with that by offering a trade, according to a tweet from John Gambadoro of 620 KTAR in Phoenix. Suns and Warriors have discussed trade scenarios in which Robin Lopez goes to Golden State and 11th pick plus (Ekpe) Udoh ends up with Phoenix NBCSports.com
The Suns have offered Marcin Gortat plus the No. 13 pick for the Wolves’ No. 2 pick, according to ESPN’s Chad Ford.
The Wolves have called just about every team in the league, so the rumors are running rampant. All we can really gather is that they don’t really want Derrick Williams. Gortat emerged as a true difference-maker at the center spot for the Suns last year, so it’s a little surprising to hear his name on the table. Jun. 21 – 2:20 pm et
Source: ESPN.com
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Common thread: The number 2 pick.
What the Rockets don’t have: The number 2 pick.
Not to mention the Pacers have made it known they want to build around Hibbert rather than Granger as of last season they were making that position known around the league.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
So now the Rockets don't have attractive assets?
If so every time you’ve backed Morey goes out the window.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Did I say that? If we'd like to assign arguments to each other you can be the greatest debater ever.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased

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