Reality Check: Can The Houston Rockets Trade Up In The Draft?
by Tom Martin on Jun 3, 2011 3:57 PM CDT
in NBA Draft
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PrintRockets GM Daryl Morey is one to remain on edge. For every report that has the Rockets missing out on a potential trade or chance to land a superstar, another report quickly emerges listing the Rockets as a team eager to make a big splash in the trade or free agency market. That's Morey's nature: no matter how little a chance he has in succeeding, he's going to try anyway, hoping that the pieces may fall out of order and that Houston could get lucky. It's a trait to be celebrated, unless we find ourselves capable of reaching a boiling point for repeated letdowns.
The latest development is that Morey is attempting to jump ahead somewhere within the top ten picks in the NBA Draft. This is an account held together both by reports and by general assumption. Each year it seems, Morey is looking to move as draft day nears. He has swapped spots many times in the past, but never before has Morey lept as far forward as the top ten. In fact, the move itself is as rare as any.
So, what would Morey trade in order to move up? Perhaps he'd package his 23rd and 14th overall picks together in order to entice a team looking for more picks to take a small step backwards. Yet, somehow, that just seems too easy.
Since the current CBA was put into effect in 2005, only a few of these trades have taken form. A list of trades similar to what Houston may attempt to pull off lists as follows:
2010: Oklahoma City acquires the No. 11 pick in the first round and guard Morris Peterson from New Orleans in exchange for their 21st and 26th picks in the first round.
2008: Portland acquires the No. 11 pick in the first round and Ike Diogu from Indiana in exchange for Jarrett Jack, Josh McRoberts and the No. 13 pick in the first round.
2007: Golden State acquires the No. 8 overall pick in the first round from Charlotte in exchange for Jason Richardson and the 36th overall pick.
2007: Seattle acquires the fifth pick in the first round, Wally Szczerbiak and Delonte West from Boston in exchange for Ray Allen and the 35th overall pick.
2006: Memphis acquires the eighth pick in the first round and Stromile Swift from Houston in exchange for Shane Battier.
2006: Chicago acquires the 13th overall pick from Philadelphia in exchange for the 16th overall pick, a 2007 second round draft pick and cash considerations.
In the last six years, we have yet to see a team be able to package two first round picks and turn them into a top ten pick. The closest we came to seeing a deal such as that was last season, when Oklahoma City jumped all the way to number eleven from their spot at twenty-one. In other words, if Morey wants to move up into the top ten, it's going to require one or more of the following:
1. A willing trade partner, which is a far more complicated process than it might seem given the fact that a team needs to be convinced to trade out of the top ten.
2. Most likely, a good Houston player to be involved in the deal (i.e. Kevin Martin, Kyle Lowry or Luis Scola). The most likely scenario would parallel the trade between Charlotte and Golden State, though the Rockets do have two first round picks to work with.
3. Houston taking on a bad contract from a team looking to free up cap space in addition to trading away picks.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the one scenario I would support would be a trade sending Scola out of Houston and netting the Rockets Enes Kanter. Other than that, if a deal were to involve moving Kyle Lowry or Kevin Martin for anyone other than Derrick Williams or Kyrie Irving, it wouldn't make much sense to me.
There is no doubt Morey will try to move up, but at the end of the day, he may be better off sticking at fourteen. The more likely scenario might involve Morey packaging Houston's second round pick with their 23rd overall pick in order to move back into the teens. In any case, come draft day, we should be prepared for just about anything.
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My take
In the last six years, we have yet to see a team be able to package two first round picks and turn them into a top ten pick. The closest we came to seeing a deal such as that was last season, when Oklahoma City jumped all the way to number eleven from their spot at twenty-one. In other words, if Morey wants to move up into the top ten, it’s going to require one or more of the following…
The only issue with this assertion is that there really isn’t a comparison point. Nobody has traded a lottery pick and mid-late first rounder in recent history, so it’s tough to say how high up that could get you. In the NFL, there’s a pretty well-circulated draft pick value chart, but in the NBA, nobody is quite sure. I will agree with you that Lee, Scola, or Martin will likely be gone if Houston wants to move anywhere higher than perhaps #8 or 9, but I think moving into the top 10 is possible under the right circumstances (as you mentioned, a willing trade partner).
I know that it would be about the 300th trade we’ve done with them, but I could see us dealing with Sacramento and giving them a guy like Courtney Lee to move up from 14 to 7. I don’t know if Morey would be willing to do it in a weak draft, but they would be one team that would make sense, and they need help on the wings.
In the end, if we don’t get Kanter or Vesely, I don’t see much of a reason to move up. Harris, Singleton, or Leonard (if he fell) would all be solid picks and it would be nice to hold onto the extra assets. Let’s just hope that someone like Lucas Nogueira pulls a Hassan Whiteside (well, except for being horrible at basketball) and falls to the second round so the pick at 38 could actually be worth something.
Maybe a three-way trade with GS (if Adelman goes there) and Minny?
Adelman might want Scola and Minny might want Ellis, but I can’t find anyone for us to take to match salaries.
I guess this would work.
Minnesota gets Ellis and the 11th pick. They also get rid of two guys they are rumored to be trying to move, Beasley and Flynn.
GS gets Adelman favorites Scola, Lee and Miller and the 14th pick. They also get rid of Ellis, who they are rumored to be trying to move.
Houston gets Flynn and Beasley (both expire next year) and the 2nd pick.
This would make sense for all of the teams and all three teams have strong connections to each other. This only applies if Adelman goes to GS.
I'm sure the Rockets would love that
Can’t see Golden State or Minnesota doing it. Though he’s a chucker, Golden State could do better than an aging, potentially overpaid PF, a young SG, and an aging, and definitely overpaid center for Monta Ellis (not to mention a trade down). Minnesota would love to add Ellis, but to give up 2 decent young talents and the #2 pick in the draft for Monta Ellis would be too much.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 3, 2011 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I was reading at the Minnesota board that they were looking to dump Beasley and Flynn. You may be right about them not getting enough.
Golden State would move from 11 to 14 to pick up Scola and Courtney Lee and Miller has an excellent contract. It may not be their best deal, but I think it’s more than fair if Adelman’s their coach.
Luis Scola IMO would've been a perfect person to trade away
But teams are probably worried about his surgery :(
The T-Wolves want to trade away the 2nd pick in the draft, and Chris Mannix (Or WOJ, or Spears. One of these three) is reporting that Kahn wants a veteran big man in the packaged deal.
Enter Scola.
We could give them a package consisting of Scola/Martin and picks for the 2nd overall pick.
Or, if necessary, trade both Martin and Scola, and the 23rd pick. Not sure I would approve of this deal, but it may be necessary to get rid of both Scola and Martin, something that I’m not opposed to.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
On salary alone I think we'd be making a hard pitch for a guy like Love or Rubio in the deal.
Minny has a TPE but the TPE absorbs Martin at best. Packaging Martin and Scola (Unlikely but entertaining the idea) means you have to make up one of the two’s salary, which I think would fit nicely with a “How about…” conversation.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
If it was Martin
#2,Webster to Houston,Flynn to Clippers,Martin,#14 to Minn and a future protected First(from Clips to Hou) works out.
The thinking in this case would be Williams,Lee,Lowry starting and Bud,T-Will,Dragic off bench gives nice blend of offense/defense in starters and two shooters for T-Will to set up in second unit.(As always,assuming T-Will can stay on the court and be a team player.)
If I'm honest, I think negotiations have to start with Luis offered out there before we move on to Kevin.
The more I weigh the idea of a necessary big man (Second series will be up in about 3 days or so) the more I think with Kevin as your primary, Patterson developing, and contributions from the rest of the team we can ride Martin for a bit. I’d like to see something more than a future protected first, the number two this year, and Webster out of it. Honestly, I would like to get my hands on Wesley Johnson. A big part of that is most likely my being a Syracuse fan. Hell yea Boeheim.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Plus the cap space for whoever
If Williams can give 16-18ppg,Lee 10-12,the Center TBD some and the bench scoring regularly,You’ve pretty much made up Martin’s scoring and added rebounding and a bit more D.
I just don’t think the Rockets are looking to trade Martin right now,unless they get an offer they can’t refuse.(BTW,Martin has shown the young guys how a savvy vet tries to score points w/a new coaching staff,super job!)
I imagine we’re going to see the Rockets use Martin as their second option,w/going inside first,out to Martin and then over to Lowry if nothing develops and have him pick-n-roll into lane.
I can understand a new,pretty untested Head Coach wanting to hang on to Martin as a security blanket.
Scola is someone I see being moved more towards Trade Deadline,or if lockout,in that short frenzy when trades are allowed again.(Suppose Chicago is able to buy-out Boozer,think they wouldn’t love Luis as his replacement?)
As to general question of moving up,we’e tended to focus on the homer-runs of moving into top 4 or so. I think it’s much more likely the Rockets move up 3-5 spots,if their guy is available.
The Draft is full of guys who could become solid role-players,rotation guys,decent starters(til somebody better comes along types),but not many w/clear break-out potential.
If you’re a team looking to fill several holes,moving down a few spots and picking up something extra might look pretty good.
Which makes Bud the most likely Rocket to be traded IMO.Has a definite NBA skill,proven,name recognition,still locked up cheap for a couple of seasons-an easy PR sell for a team trading down. Would Bud get you into top 4-oh heck no,but he might get you into 8-10.
OT,was it just me or did McHale in the interview put a
little emphasis on Jordan Hill when talking about young Rocket bigs? Still trying to decide if he’d forgotten about Hill or if Hill’s a guy he really thinks he can help.
Re Wesley
Funny BD mentions him,as much trade speculation among Wolves fans has him expendable in a trade for a proven wing scorer. His rep there seems to be a project offensively who’s willing to defend.
I wonder if Minn would be willing to trade him away so early,w/out wanting a First back.
Thanks for the backup on the Wesley idea. I think he's a good option and has the offensive raw material, his willingness to defend is just a huge perk.
When it comes to the idea of moving Martin, I think the hierarchy of moves right now is as follows:
1.) Move Scola.
2.) Shop Kevin Martin, no good deals, no trade.
3.) Draft smart.
I really like the idea of landing Kawhi Leonard with the way the talent drop off is. If we go after Wesley that all breaks apart but it’s all kicking the tires right now. I made my proposals in Bone’s “Who would you trade up for.” post, I’d like to hear your thoughts on them.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
i think that having a 14, 23 and scola
To throw down may be an intriguing offer to a lot of teams. Maybe kahn feels validated enough what with rubio finaly signing that he’ll look to shock people again on draft day.
After almost a decade of high draft picks and no real improvment, he said he’s lookin for a solid vet to stabalize the team and they don’t get much more solid than scola. As PF is their most stacked position, they may not be so concerned with his surgery or looking for him to have an outrageous on-court impact.
I don’t think we’d go lall the way up to 2 but a 3 team trade where we move to 6 or so.
"Never underestimate the heart of a champion"- Rudy T, all up in that azz
by ShookednShanghaied11 on Jun 3, 2011 5:41 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Only thing is...
“Veteran big man” at the center position is tough to come by, at least one with the talent they’d be looking for.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Kaman is one that comes to mind.
I tried to find a three way with the Rockets, Clippers and Wolves, but the Wolves have a bunch of small contracts.
Kaman,Mo Williams work
Hou gets #2,Mo Williams
Clips get Beasley,Flynn
Minn gets Martin
Assorted Future Firsts,cash get spread around to season.
No go for Rockets,unless they really,really love whoever would be at #2 because Williams is a dreadful contract,bad PG.
Hou gets Kaman,#2
Clips get Beasley,Flynn
Minn gets Martin
Assorted other Firsts,Seconds,cash spread around.
Hou gets #2,Anthony Randolph,Webster
Clips get Beasley,Flynn,Pekovic
Minn gets #14,Kaman,Martin
thier best players are at pf as well
So scola use in schoolin em on how to be consistant and last in the league as a PF would be invaluable. Not to mention helping their footwork and learnin how to score in a myriad of ways that are effective and do not expend a lot of energy.
I doubt it’ll happen but I also doubted that anyone would take two pgs with two top 10 picks, all while passing on a better pg.
"Never underestimate the heart of a champion"- Rudy T, all up in that azz
by ShookednShanghaied11 on Jun 3, 2011 7:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
This is an account held together both by reports and by general assumption.
In the Morey interview in the fanshot I posted, he openly admits that he has tried to trade into the top ten every year and that this year will be no different.
Toronto, Toronto, and Toronto...
Like I’ve said they have a lot of expirings and will only have 10 players under contract. They are the perfect team to package both first rounders and a player for that number 5. I know this is not a popular idea, but it’s going to take a Buddinger or Courtney Lee to get it done. I’m sorry, Scola is not as highly prized as ya’ll have him.
Toronto’s 2 SFs entering next season are Linus Kleiza and James Johnson. It is a definite need of theirs, and picking 5th, after Derrick WIlliams goes in the top 2, the other SFs are stretchs at 5 and there will still be value at the position with the Rockets 14th pick. I mean Leonard may be gone, but several others will be there. Toronto to me, is the most viable option. And I wouldn’t have a problem sending them our 2 picks, and Bud or Lee, or possibly Dragic if Houston would decide to take one of the great PGs in the draft like Kemba or Knight if they are there at 5. I think Daryl is high on Kemba.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
that seems viable
But I don’t wanna loose lee or dragic for anything short of a star. I love the way they approach the game and feel that their cielings are a lot higher than most have em pegged at. Id like to keep bud as well, while I’m at it.
I know I’m risking serious back-lash here but can’t we just dump williams on em? Not saying he’s not good, in fact, quite the opposite. Why would toronto want to loose a 5 if he sucked? But he’s no good for this team and the culture we’ve tried to develop here.
As we seem to draft hard working, hard nosed, good kids, twill seems like the odd-man out. Don’t know the guy but it seems that adleman did whatever he could to win games and he left a talented kid rot on the bench for what seemed like personal reasons.
"Never underestimate the heart of a champion"- Rudy T, all up in that azz
by ShookednShanghaied11 on Jun 3, 2011 7:16 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
How is it not a popular idea?
Budinger is someone this site has been comfortable trading for a while. You say people inflate Scola’s value when they package him with the 14 and the 23rd to a team that wants vets but you think Budinger and 14 will get us the 5th? There’s no scalar way of evaluating worth of an exchange in the NBA like there is in the NFL but Toronto has enough holes in their team that it makes a bigger difference between the 5th and the 14th when they could snag a quality SF at the 5 spot to pair with DeRozan.
I’m hoping the Rockets gun for that sweet spot between 7 and 10 honestly since the talent drop off is huge outside the top 3. The best option for us to get our hands on anything viable as a starter is to negotiate with Minnesota, intensely.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Um
When I include Scola in a deal with teams either wanting a veteran big man or simply lacking size, I think he is appropriately judged.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
All I'm saying is good luck with the 14, 23 and Scola
for moving up in this draft. There’s just not much value there. In a weak draft with only a few players who can potentially be impactful, trading back for more picks isn’t feasible. And it’s not like Scola is going to help a team lacking size. Yes he’s a PF and yes he’s a veteran, but his skills will be diminishing while his contract only goes up. I just don’t see a team drafting that early making a deal like that, unless they unload a hefty contract player to Houston in the process.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
I think Sacramento would be interested in that deal.
We may have to throw in some cash to ice the cake, but Scola is a guy that Sacramento is looking for. They’ve got a lot of young, talented players, and could use a savvy veteran to pair with Cousins in the paint.
You have to remember, Scola’s production is all based off of skill, not athleticism. That means Scola has a few more years before he starts to fully decline. He just came off of a 19 and 8 year. His contract is not attractive, but I think his production nearly matches his salary.
Sacramento has been one of the teams who have expressed interest in moving down, if the deal is right. We’ve made numerous deals with Sacramento over the past few years, so we have good communication with them.
The real question is, who would the Rockets be targeting if they moved up? Does Biyombo’s defensive domination attract Morey? Or perhaps Jan Vesely’s great potential as a legit two way player? It could be either of those, but who knows. Morey is beyond unpredictable.
Keep in mind that Sacramento management would want to make a try for the playoffs this year, to make sure the team stays in Sacramento, and to keep the fans interested. Adding a guy like Scola would improve those chances, as opposed to drafting a young player who isn’t at Scola’s level yet.
I do get what you’re saying though. 14 and 23 aren’t great picks, especially in this draft, but there are some really nice players at 14 who Sacramento could be interested in. Tobias Harris is a guy that would fit right in with them. They need a SF, like we do, so it could work.
You say that we may need to take on a shitty contract in order to move up, and that could certainly happen. Les has always been willing to spend extra in order to improve the team.
Other teams besides Sacramento have expressed interest in moving down, so we could have multiple trade partners.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 3, 2011 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
The most fascinating aspect about this draft is the potential. To be honest there really isn’t a need to move up unless it’s for the 2nd or 3rd pick and even that I question a bit. No one in this draft stands out as a guarantee superstar but I do guarantee that many teams will end up with special players that are not top ten picks. This draft facilitates the rockets needs more then we know. Many will drop because of uncertainties; many will flop because of being overrated or projected so high. So knowing your basketball and having an eye for talent really plays dividends. The rockets and Mr. Morey have done extremely well with that category. But let’s aim for the fences like we did with our new coach and take some chances. I say we package Scola w/ the 23rd pick and maybe filler like Jordan Hill (still has some upside considering the slow transition) and if need be, the second round pick for DeMarcus Cousins and to help alleviate their financial woes, by picking up an unwanted contract. Let’s keep the 14th pick and consider drafting Bismack Biyombo, Tobias Harris, Jordan Hamilton, Marcus Morris all who have potential to instantly impact this team on both sides of the ball. This also gives us more size, defense, youth and our new coach a chance to show us just how good he is with developing "the big man". Cousins needs someone like K-Mac to help him progress and reach dominance at his position. We know Mr. Morey will try to pursue Mark Gasol or even Tyson Chandler through free agency and both would be nice to pare up with someone like Cousins. This team is on its way up and whatever this team decides, next year will be exciting to say the least as a Rocket fan. Just thought I would share some of my draft ideas.
do you really think Sac-town would consider that?
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Why not? The situation with Cousins might not be worth the risk for Sac considering their financial hardships and his mental state. Cousins is very raw and Sac needs to win now. With Sac looking to snag a point like Kemba in the draft and moving Tyreke Evans to shooting guard, pairing them up with Scola gives them a whole new dynamic. We are the ones that could lose more especially not knowing if Cousins mental state could be controlled enough that his true talent is reached.
Gonna back Jake up with this.
Big men are a rare commodity and Cousins is slated to be a game changer in the NBA at the 5. He’s got maturity issues and the “financial hardships” facing the Kings are just the Maloofs gambling problems. Seriously, how do you open a casino and fail to make money? They ran their father’s business into the ground but the city of Sacramento supports them still. The Lakers won’t let them move to Anaheim because they’re hoarding that market.
Scola doesn’t give them a new dynamic, Scola gives them an injured 30 year old with a backloaded contract when they already have Jason Thompson to hold the position down. Your own reasoning kills your reasoning. If the Maloofs have financial hardships you don’t trade for a broken down guy who is slated to make more than twice what that rookie is. Everyone knew about DeMarcus Cousins’s maturity issues and they still drafted him. Cousins, Evans, and Casspi isn’t a bad group to build with at all.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
by BD34 on Jun 3, 2011 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sac wants to improve SF and PG
Their coach really doesn’t like Casspi’s D,and Casspi had told them he’s okay w/being traded,hint,hint.
I wonder just how high the Rockets are on Patterson,because a Patterson for the #7 is something Sac would likely jump all over.(Low salary,potential,mature and has successfully teamed w/Cousins in past.) Me,I think Patterson’s ceiling is lower than many believe,but I do think he could be a solid starting PF for the next 10 yrs,just not a star. I wonder if there’s anyone potentially at 7 that the Rockets feel would be worth Patterson.
The other Rocket that Sac would want is Lowry and now you’re trading away a pretty good PG for Udrih,a pretty mediocre one and have opened up a huge hole to get the #7.(Sac beat reporters mentioned a couple of times near trade deadline that while their GM liked Brooks,Lowry was the kind of PG the team needed. Yeah,Sac was on my if-Rockets-aren’t on-I’m-watching list. There were the former Rockets,Greene,Landry,Taylor,as well as curiosity about Cousins and whether Tyreke would ever learn to pass the ball-short answer,not yet.)
There is a Kobe/Shaq dynamic being played out by Evans and Cousins and it will be interesting to see who leaves,voluntarily or pushed.
PPat may be the closest thing to an un-touchable...
He’s going to be in the league for a very long time and his ceiling is a forward to can rebound, defend, and be a great pick and pop/roller. He may not ever be a star, but he’s got a very bright future, and has proven that he’s NBA ready.
I would love Cousins, but it’s going to be tough to get him IMO.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
In other words, I would rather take Cousins than move up at all in this draft
with the exception of pick 1 or 2. There’s no Cousins or Favors in this draft and you really never know when the next one will come out and if he’s attainable.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Pat for 7,not Cousins
Sac’s not trading Cousins for Pat,what I said is that they would love to get Patterson to play alongside Cousins.
Now,I doubt the Rockets would trade Patterson for the #7-unless they just totally love someone there-but Sac would do it in a heartbeat.
Re Cousins,my guess is Sac tries this season to get them to work it out,and may even go next season w/the two hoping a new coach can get them together,but that’s as far as I see the two together.
The fun part about it is Sac has really invested heavily in promoting Evans as the face of the franchise,while the players are really pissed that Evans won’t pass the ball.And the team’s character guy,Garcia,the team leader in the lockerroom,has taken Cousins under his wing.
So the team has two potential franchise players,one of whom the other players are starting to take shots at for his selfishness and the other who is repeatedly clashing w/the coaching staff.(And we’ll ignore Evans has said that the idea of forming a Miami-like super-team w/other young players sounds good to him when his rookie contract’s up.)
how in the world
Do u think cousins is an unwanted contract? He was outstanding on the court last yr as a rookie and showed legit flashes at being an immensily gifted true center at times. Off the court he had some issues, as predicted but expecting a 20yr old kid to be mature is a bit much.
If he didn’t have charecter concerns he coulda gone first and if blake didn’t count as a rooki he’d have prolly won ROY.
It’d take a lot to pry cousins away from the kings but who knows? Maybe the maloofs do it to piss their fas off in retaliation for makin em stay.
"Never underestimate the heart of a champion"- Rudy T, all up in that azz
by ShookednShanghaied11 on Jun 3, 2011 7:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Sac-town is part of a trend where small market teams are bleeding to death. Eventually teams will dump players because of this. Is Cousins an unwanted contract? NO , his talents and potential are worth the risk but can Sac-town afford the risk? This teams needs to convince the city its worthy of a new arena…. Scola can help push a team with Kemba and Evens into the playoffs-spark that city. That’s what I am betting on
i think wed all love for that trade to happen
It just won’t man. Scola is making 8mil a yr which increases year by year for the next 4 or 5 years. There also a legit question as to wether or not scola will truly be better than cousins next yr as scola just had a pretty serious injury and cousins has a yr under his belt.
The guy may have maturity issues but he’s still pridefull enough to realy work on his game to improve. He wants to emmbarass all the teams that passed on him.
"Never underestimate the heart of a champion"- Rudy T, all up in that azz
by ShookednShanghaied11 on Jun 3, 2011 8:50 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
dream a little dream and hope big things come true
Their defiantly might be no reason for Sac-town to even think about a trade like that but as a fan of basketball and the Rockets, finding a way to acquire players like Cousins is worth perusing. When I was growing up I could remember every team based off of their own super stars. Unfortunately in today’s game, there is a lack of true superstars – not to take away from the game because in all fairness, there are some really good players out there but super stars…not anymore. I hear the same argument from so called Rockets fans claiming this team team doesn’t do anything to get Big time players…superstars. Where are all the superstars for us to go after? In reality Cousins will never get traded but my angle in all this was to look for players in small markets or trade with teams looking for financial help even if that means the team trades a young and up in coming player. I am a diehard fan who believes in the rockets as an organization, I believe out of all the teams in this city the Rockets and our owner are the only team that gives a damn about winning and its fans. D-Morey has me motivated and I know some how some way he will get us back to clutch city. To all the dreamers, the draft analyzers and delusional trade wishers like me (LOL), the rockets are on their way up and that it not delusional to say the least.
Utah might be a good trade partner.
Kanter will still be there and Utah can trade down to get Jimmer without reaching.
Utah is kind of a dark horse for a block-buster IMO
Not necessarily with moving up in the draft, but in a trade. Let’s face it, a McHale/Al Jefferson reunion is almost inevitable. Every minute Jefferson and Milsap are on the floor together is another minute that Favors is not. What does Houston have to offer? Well, Kirilenko and CJ Miles will be hitting the open market, leaving them with Hayward as essentially their only SF. Naturally Chase comes to mind mostly because of his race, but also it’s a position they could fill through a trade without spending a lot of money. Houston could add cash, future picks, Hill or Thabeet. No matter what though.. If Jefferson is being shopped, Houston should jump all over it.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Jefferson isn't likely to be shopped.
He is the only good center on the roster.
Favors and Millsap are both PFs. I agree that Favors is inevitably going to get more playing time, but not at the expense of trading away Jefferson. He is now their franchise player. They are rebuilding, I guess, but they can still make the playoffs this year. On top of already having good, if not great talent, they have the 3rd and 12th picks in this year’s draft.
However, they could ship Jefferson away, and get even more draft picks. It’s unlike them to do that though. As much as I hate them, they generally have a smart FO.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 3, 2011 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions
How?
He’s 6’11" 260 with good length.
He’s athletic and active in the paint, two things needed to be considered a “true” center.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 4, 2011 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Eh. I don't think he is.
He’s close enough to get by but it’s a toss-up. He’s not a good help defender.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
He can masquerade as a center at times
If you held onto Scola, that frontcourt would be an utter disaster defensively. He has the bulk to check centers, but he’s not athletic enough to help on the weak-side like you’d want a true center to do. Next to Patterson, sure, he’d be alright, but you couldn’t pair him with anyone like Scola.
by Patrick Harrel on Jun 4, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
The idea is to get rid of Scola.
I think Patterson is ready to start. He’s going to be one of our key players in the future, so now’s a good time to start developing his offensive game, particularly in the post.
This move can be viewed as “rushing” Patterson, but I think he’s ready to play 35+ minutes per game.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
by bone31crusher on Jun 4, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
For everything Jefferson gives you on offense, he gives up even more on defense. There have been a few articles about it, but Minnesota and Utah were consistently worse with Jefferson on the court than they were with him off it.
by seanbergmanrules on Jun 5, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Jefferson gives you the presence
McHale eluded to it several times how much a skilled player in the post is a dam near necessity. Think about how much better that would make this offense. Right now the only way players can get open are back cuts and screens. What if there is someone down on the block who demands a double team? When Jefferson started with McHale, he was just a big body. By the time Kevin left Minnesota, Jefferson was a force down low. I think it would be a great acquisition, and if he’s being shopped at all, Houston should jump all over it. Players with that kind of impact are hard to come by. For some big men, it takes the right coaching and players around him to suceed. See Randolph in Portland, NYK, and LAC, and then compare that to the impact he’s had with Memphis
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
And when Jefferson's knees explode again?
Houston fans often salivate over any player that rips us up. When it comes down to it, this team doesn’t have a problem with offense, it’s defense. Getting Jefferson because of his offensive impact does nothing to address the team’s legitimate needs. Not to mention you merely acquire a guy who is about an old 25. With his injury issues in his career and his lack of defensive commitment he’s not the kind of guy this team could absorb reasonably.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
I don't think he's as injury prone as you think he is....
assuming every C who’s 25 or older will break down eventually combats conventional wisdom. While there are cases of it, it’s not the rule. The last 2 seasons he’s played 76 and 82 games. His shortest amount of games in a season was 50. No he’s not Howard or Bogut, but he’s an under-rated defender who could get better. I mean last year he was top 10 in blocks and averaged less than 3 fouls per game. He’s slow to react and needs to improve his lateral quickness defensively, but so does every C in the league expcept for maybe 5 guys.
And as far as the teams’ “needs” go, did you not listen to McHale’s audio. I don’t think he went 30 seconds without mentioning post presence. Now the Rockets can wait for the next Cousins to come out in the draft (not happening this year and probably not next), try to develop Thabeet into a low block player who demands double teams(not going to hold my breath), or try and acquire someone. And for everyone who thinks he’s not an impactful center, his eff per game rating last season was 22.3, good for 18th in the NBA and 5th best for centers.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
Key bits: “Sure, it looks like a tough selection when the stats say that Jefferson was one of the more productive shot-blockers in the league this season (153 blks). But there’s more to defense than blocking shots, and Al didn’t do ANY of them…”
and
“Raw stat: He had the worst defensive differential per 100 possessions than any player in the league (among regulars, that I could find)–Utah gave up 6.8 more points per 100 possessions when Jefferson was on the court than when he was off. 113.3 when he was ON, 106.5 when he was off.”
by seanbergmanrules on Jun 5, 2011 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Congrats on the info gathering
I wonder if all of those stats occured on days that ended in y. And if you really want to get into micro-stats, then a few years ago Chuck Hayes was the best player in the NBA right, when he led the NBA in the lenovo? And I guess that according to Kawakami, Monta Ellis and Kobe Bryant who also were high on the list, are crappy NBA players. I mean Jefferson’s player eff of 22.3 and Holinger’s rating of over 20 should discredit the kind of player he really is.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
If you actually read the article, it didn’t say that Kobe was one of the worst defensive players in the league, it just said that the 2011 Kobe was significantly worse, defensively, than the 2010 Kobe. Which is completely true.
As to efficiency and Hollinger, those ratings are based heavily on offense, and counting stats on defense, such as blocks and rebounds. Which Jefferson does well. That is not a complete measure of defense however, and as the article specifically says Jefferson doesn’t do anything else related to defense.
As to Ellis, he’s not terrible, but he’s no where near as good as his point totals suggest.
by seanbergmanrules on Jun 6, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't pay attention to Jake, he can't stand it when someone proves him wrong.
Good on ya with the stats man.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
by BD34 on Jun 5, 2011 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you disagree with me and claim that I am "wrong"
then according to that logic, Kobe Bryant sucks.
Welcome to Houston Kevin McHale. Just remember "It was Minnesota" is no longer an excuse.
If you misapply the data, then yes, it does.
However you asserted Jefferson played defense well. It was reflected he does not play defense well. You attempted to discount the blatant analysis to the contrary. That is all.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
jefferson was a good
player in Boston, before he was traded to Minny so i can’t give him that credit.
by since86rocketsfan on Jun 6, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
After a couple of beer and an "adult smoke break"
I think the Rockets should stay where they are, grab 2 players in the first round, and see what you can get at the trade deadline. Personally, I dont see a point in moving up in a weak draft.
"Stability is a factor in teams that win the championship. But if you stabilize on a team that's going to end up short of that, then all you're doing is spinning your wheels in the 45-win range."-----Daryl Morey
by fanoflosingteams on Jun 3, 2011 10:34 PM CDT reply actions
Question for y'all
Is there really anyone on this team that you would deem “untouchable?” Scrolling through all these comments, I am getting a general feeling the answer is no.
Check out nickandroll.blogspot.com
When you occupy the spot the Rockets do, no one is untouchable.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
Chuck Hayes, damnit
"You know how Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are
even worse! " ~Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes
by TheChuckwagonisrolling on Jun 5, 2011 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the chances of their trading Martin or Lowry is very, very low
Other than that, pretty much anything could happen.
I also think it’s very unlikely that they won’t renew Hayes’s contract, but he may not have a prime spot in the rotation.
WHY?
Why in the world would you want to trade up?
For WHO?
This draft has the least amount of talent in 20 years!!
Come up with a better thread. This one makes absolutely no sense.
I see we've brought out the rational posters. Awesome.
Most every draft that is decried as weak or “having minimal talent” produces players across the board that turn out to be extremely useful for a team. One of the weakest drafts (Widely proclaimed as weak by every analyst out there and believed by fans, since fans tend to put minimal time into thinking and more time into regurgitation) was the 2006 draft.
That draft returned the following franchise caliber players:
LaMarcus Aldridge (Second pick)
Brandon Roy (Pre-exploding knees, picked 6)
The following players produced are high cut second tier talent at worst:
Rudy Gay (Eighth pick)
Rajon Rondo (Twenty-first pick)
The following damn good players:
Kyle Lowry (Twenty-fourth pick)
Paul Milsap (Fourty-seventh pick)
And one all-NBA level talent:
Steve Novak (Thirty-second pick)
Who among those guys do you NOT want on the Rockets? History repeats itself often and that “shit” draft class in 2006 returned quite a few good players as far as drafts are considered. Unfortunately most drafts are weighed against Lebron’s class.
My beingadick-butnotbeinganannoyingdick skills, they're impressive.
-TCWIR paraphrased
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