What Better Time Than Now?
by theSpaceCityKid on Jan 17, 2012 12:51 PM CST
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Hello again DreamShakers! It has been awhile since I have posted with the Texans riding a wave of awesome for so long, but I have watched about 6 or 7 of the Rockets games so far this year. A few of the early games had me really excited, but since then I have been less than thrilled. I have been very confused with the lack of structure in the sets on either end of the court and it concerns me because it is hard for young talent to look good playing free-lance basketball instead of meshing into a system that fits them.
Either way, a few things are clear: Lowry is an animal but can not carry a team by himself in today's NBA landscape, Scola can score whenever he wants to, Dalembert is a good NBA center, Parsons has game, Martin and the rest of the role players are not showing that they will gain very much value anytime soon.
My point? I just think with the lockout turning off a small group of fans, the coaching change, the clean slate for Morey, the shorten season to ease the pain, teams like the Heat and Clippers building the teams they are, the city of Houston still drunk with joy from the Texans good showing, and the pending talent deep draft..... what better time to shoot for an early draft pick? It seems to be the best way to acquire a young exciting star without dealing with the "I dont wanna play here" mentality of free agency. Not to mention you keep all your players instead of overpaying for a prima donna! Just thought I would throw it out there to kick around. Ill be a huge Rocket fan either way and can not wait to grab some tickets to a good homer! GO ROCKETS!!
No cursing in title. No pirated material, such as links to online game streams. Do not cut/paste entire sections of content from other websites. Thanks.
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few things...
this team does not suck enough
top picks aren’t always full proof to become superstarts
and this one is the big one…. THE OWNER DOESNT WANT TO
Yes Martin and Scola need to go, but you’re probably going to have to take on something that sucks balls. We’re in position to be a player in this summer’s draft with our picks and available money. It’s pointless to trade just to trade, we need expirings not bad contracts.
temporary avatar change...
I know the owner doesnt want to
I wanted to get an idea of how the fans on this blog felt. I know its not a lock that you get a star I just feel like if we had to trade everything we were going to trade for a guy like Pau Gasol, who says openly he didnt wanna play here, why not take a more hedged bet in keeping more of your core and taking a swing on a youngster to team with Lowry to build around.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Jan 17, 2012 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
why not take a more hedged bet in keeping more of your core and taking a swing on a youngster to team with Lowry to build around.
What you’re saying here is contradictory.
Look, if you want a top five pick, the Rockets will have to get rid of everyone. As currently constructed, even if you get rid of Martin and Scola the Rockets are better than the bottom third of the league. You’re not going to get a “good” pick in the draft and keep the core players.
The Rockets have good players. The more good players you have on reasonable contracts, the better your position. Tanking does nothing other than maybe get you a top-10 pick in the draft.
The Rockets are working with what they have, and they’ll get better via trade, free agency, drafting well, and development. That’s a better path to success than scrapping everything. The only reason to scrap everything is if you’re in cap hell and can’t get better.
by Only_A_Lad on Jan 17, 2012 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
From what I've seen so far
we would have no shot in the playoffs. Any team with a halfway decent offense will destroy us. We would be a bottom dweller (more than we already are) in points allowed if not for the 70 points Charlotte put up bringing our average down. I think we would only have to dish Scola for and we would lose a lot more games.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Jan 17, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
and I havent even been a fan of tanking
I love that Les wants to win and Im glad we have an owner like that. Its just that we dont look like the exciting 6,7,8 seed that makes a splash in the playoffs this year. We look like we would be lucky to make the cut and then even luckier to make i past 6 games.
Rectum!? Damn near killed 'em!!!
by theSpaceCityKid on Jan 17, 2012 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
Any team with a halfway decent offense will destroy us
What? Like Portland, San Antonio, or Atlanta (11th, 2nd, 8th)?
I think we would only have to dish Scola for and we would lose a lot more games.
That’s funny, because Scola has been one of the Rockets’ least productive players this season.
The stats on taking are terrible.
unless you get the #1 pick its not worth it. this year i extend that to #2. you need a top 8 seed to have a reasonable shot at a regular “star”. its just not worth it.
Don't worry man, this idea is going to go over like a fart in church.
This fan base has eaten up the mediocrity of being an also-ran/maybe 8th seed so doing anything to change that is just going to inspire anger from people who have accepted being irrelevant.
Yes, BD, that's exactly it.
We all totally see an eighth-seed as the end game.
Look, we’ve gone around in circles a hundred times on this topic. I get why you think the Rockets should just sell off everyone and start over (high draft picks are good). I’ve given my reasons for wanting the Rockets to (at the very least) wait and see, and so have many other people (high draft picks aren’t that good; gathering good players on good contracts is a better guarantee of future success than trying to bottom out) I don’t get why you continue to misconstrue that as “accepting being irrelevant” when that is the opposite of the point everyone is making.
The difference between those wanting to tank and those not wanting to do that is hardly the former desiring a championship and the latter craving mediocrity, just as it’s not the former wanting to see 15-win basketball and the latter wanting a championship. We differ on strategy, not goal.
You can try to condense it all you want but I'm yet to see anything contrary.
What changes if the Rockets get in to the playoffs in 8th place or pick 14th? We wind up stuck right in this spot again barring a major free agent coming to a city without an NBA Recognized recruiting stud. You try to condense my point to “high draft picks are good” but it really just points to facing the inevitable and building now rather than keep selling the franchise that 8th is good enough with no indication of moving forward at all.
We can talk value and assets all we want but as pointed out in other threads which still never got addressed, the Rockets don’t have players that will land a star without trading Lowry and this fan base is wont to do that.
Playing your cards right in free agency, trades, and in the draft is much more likely to yield you a superstar-level player than the draft. I’d rather trust the market (in FA and in trade) than I would the lottery balls. I get why the lottery is so appealing, but it always strikes me as the Price-is-Right thing: yes, I can take all these fabulous prizes, but what if what’s behind the curtain is a slightly better fabulous prize?!
Getting into the playoffs represents something real. It means that the players you have are good enough to win you 40+ games (or whatever will be required). They have that sort of value. They produce at that level.
It doesn’t mean that you have somehow stumbled into those wins. You did something to get there, and specifically your players did things to get those wins.
That means they have value in trade, and that means you can make something work. If you can’t, you can’t, but I think your chances are better with players of value than they are in desperately hoping season after season that you either win the lottery or enough teams are dumb so you can get the guy you want.
the Rockets don’t have players that will land a star without trading Lowry and this fan base is wont to do that.
1) We got a star without trading Lowry before.
2) The fans aren’t in charge of anything
I really doubt that Lowry will be required in a potential trade, largely because there are a lot of teams really enamored of the draft (much like fans). They just want some waivers on cheap young players who have “potential.” Those are guys like Patterson, Williams, Dragic, etc. It’s certainly possible, and I’m sure if a worthwhile trade comes by that requires Lowry to get it done, Morey would do it, but it’s pointless to speculate whether or not Lowry might or might not be required.
I’m tired of people acting like this roster is the ‘07 Knicks. They have flexibility, they have cap space, they have young players, they can do what they need to do. So in the mean time let’s enjoy some basketball and stop being upset when they win.
Funny, you point to a vetoed trade where it took Rockets AND Lakers AND Hornets to land the Rockets a player (Not done alone)
Yet you say Lowry won’t have to be included when the deal collapsed BECAUSE Lowry was requested. Pick and choose, eh?
Also, answer me this with your last paragraph that amounts to shit in one hand and wish in the other, which one gets filled first:
What good is flexibility if you don’t use it?
What good is cap space if no one wants your money?
How good are the young players that are not-competitive as a second unit?
People who advocate the market approach pay no mind to the last few years where we’ve had the same “value laden youth” for years that no one has taken. This really isn’t going to parse out because reality is subjective.
Agreed
OAL you paint a pretty picture but dont have real life examples to back you up.
Real Life Example 1 – Hakeem Olajuwon was drafted by the Rockets #1 overall, we eventually won a championship
Real Life Example 2 – Yao Ming was drafted #1 overall, a superstar, though we know how that ended
You say this team is too good to get a Top 5 pick without Martin or Scola, I’d like to see us try
by Carlos_HoustonSportsFanatic on Jan 18, 2012 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
This is actually a new and interesting argument, so I'll adress it.
1) 80s-early 90s Blazers — Middling-to-strong team from the late ‘70s on, picked 14th in the ’83 draft (Drexler), while the ’84 debacle was only afforded by trading Tom Owens to the Pacers in 1981.
2) The Lakers in general (a lot done in free agency; more done via trade market). Only one of their current stars was acquired by them in the draft, and that’s Bynum. Gasol was basically a gift, but that was a gift afforded by the Lakers generally making good deals. Kupchak sucks at free agency negotiations and roster construction, but he knows a good trade.
3) 2000s Pistons — picked in the lottery in ’98 (Bonzi Wells, traded later) and ’94 (Grant Hill, eventually turned via sign-and-trade into Chucky Atkins — unimportant — and Ben Wallace — very important). The Darko pick in ’03 was acquired in ’97 from Vancouver, and ended up being a fuck-up, but whatever. So, all in all, picking in the draft eventually netted them Ben Wallace by accident or design, who was considered basically a throw-in to the Grant Hill deal. Billups came in via free agency. Rip Hamilton was acquired via trade (the most important piece of which was probably Jerry Stackhouse, who was himself acquired via trade a few years earlier).
4) 2000s Kings. Really only one high pick in the draft (1998, Jason Williams, who sucked). That turned into Mike Bibby, an integral part of the team, but (again) Jason Williams sucked. Chris Webber was acquired for Otis Thorpe (basically a contract) and Mitch Redmond (a pretty good player, though an aging one).
I would rather follow those models than those of the tanking teams. Those are things that a team’s front office can control — the trades it makes and the contracts it signs. It can’t control the lottery. It can’t control how bad the other teams are. And while you have a greater chance of netting a franchise player with a high pick than a low one, a lower pick + cap flexibility + good contracts that can be traded is better than just a high pick and a lot of hope.
And I think it’s pretty clear that the Rockets were trying for the 2000s Kings model this offseason. Gasol was our Chris Webber. Nene was going to be our Vlade Divac. Lowry was our Mike Bibby. Shame it didn’t work, but we’ll see if they can pull it off again come March.
by Only_A_Lad on Jan 18, 2012 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
of course, thinking back
at the time, everyone was in love with Jason Williams. Take that for what you will.
i love u BD
but dat man only>a>lad is correct…. i dnt like when ppl hate dat da rockets are winnin…..dawgs dats wack…..i think dat winnin n makin da playoffs is a good thing…id rather watch a team go to da playoffs and lose first round den “tank” and get a decent pick den barely be better?? even if we trade some cats we still aint gonna be top picks bro…..who we gonna trade? Why trade Lowry unless we get top 5 pick n den some……jus sayin…….good players get drafted lower den top five so i think we can trade some players and get good picks and still make da playoffs…..other teams do it…..but den u r da lawyer and i suck at writing…….so what do i kno?
////I know dat i love da rockets no matter what buts i dnt like quittin “tanking” it aint in my blood\
put a D*ck in ur ear and F*ck wat u hurd
Hear me out on this and see what you think. Everyone assumes I mean charity for players, I don't.
Lowry/Scola/Lee/Memphis 1st (Not required) to Boston for Rondo, Allen, O’Neal, and a first
Boston gets offense, a young SG, and some semblance of youth as well as a guy to mitigate Kevin Garnett’s drop-off. Houston gets 17 million dollars in expiring deals, gets out of Scola’s contract, and gets an All-NBA point guard to attract talent.
Kevin Martin to Minnesota for Wesley Johnson and a first
Minnesota gets their two guard, Houston gets a young 2 guard and a good pick.
Houston plays out the year, stays competitive but now has a bona fide star on the roster for this upcoming summer of free agency. They shed about 35 million dollars or so under the cap in the process. Dwight Howard will be a free agent and the Rockets enter the draft with the following bits to deal:
Young “talent” that this board is so infatuated with (That blows leads to poor teams, but they’re great, trust me!), NY 1st, Memphis (Depending on the Boston deal), Phoenix 1st, and various 2nd round picks acquired in minor shuffling deals.
What in that says tank? You make a massive offer to Howard to pair with Rondo and a decent pick in the draft and if he doesn’t take it, fuck him, you have tons of space to offer to other guys whether they be RFAs or FAs and if you whiff, you just rebuild. At least you have a star to stand behind with Rajon.
i feel you on dat
i jus fetl like u want us to tank…..i dnt wanna tank ya feel me?…..I dnt mind tradin players……an honestly i dnt kno bout rondo attractin players…..dat man known for being a baby and waht not……..boston prolly wont do dat trade anyway cuz they wanna win one last time……jus sayin…. but i dnt mind tradin players for better…….an ya if u gotta trade lowry for a superstar den ya cuz u can find a good pg
put a D*ck in ur ear and F*ck wat u hurd
still a little confused BD on your "Not done alone" remark...
I even reread your posts a couple of days ago about how lousy it was that we can´t get a two team trade done on our own and are only able to make a trade as the red-headed stepchild in a three team deal.
But I am still not understanding your logic.
The whole beauty about the vetoed trade was that we were going to be able to bring in our coveted big man AND dump salary so that we would be sitting pretty in the future with some good cap space. And all this without gutting our team (obvisously I am talking about the first trade proposal that did not include Lowry)
What is so wrong with being in on a three way trade IF MAYBE we ended up with the best deal of the three teams?
Sure Kobe and CP3 would be the greatest backcourt around but with no Gasol and no Odom you are only a one-knee-sprain-to-Bynum away from dropping down to the 7th or 8th seed in the West. I mean really, they traded two bigs for a small…that doesn´t fit in with the normal trade model.
And no way the N.O. team after the trade would be better than the Rocket´s team after the Rox spend that cap space money on whatever player that puts us over the top (i.e. Nene or whoever). N.O. team would not be better than Lowry, Lee, Parsons, Gasol, Nene (reserves as Flynn, Bud, PPat, Hill, Morris, TWill and whoever).
Sure I guess we could have traded Scola, PPat, Hill, Dragic, TWill and some draft picks straight up for Gasol but we wouldn´t be sitting nearly as pretty in comparison to what the vetoed trade would have left us with.
Man I know that you have stated your opinion several times in various posts but seriously, what exactly is the problem with us being in on a three way deal; especailly one that really helps us????
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 18, 2012 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
Nothing wrong with being part of a three way team in a deal, and I am not saying there is.
I think it’s the wrong focus. My claim is that the Rockets didn’t trade for someone, they were given someone for footing the bill for someone else. The Rockets got a player from the Lakers, right? The Rockets sent no players to the Lakers, correct? Therefore the Lakers did not want our players for their team. The Hornets did not send Chris Paul to Houston, right? Therefore the Hornets did not want our players for Paul. It took more players than the Rockets had to get anything done.
My assertion is that Rockets fans overrate their talent. Without shipping Lowry out we won’t get a big name guy and we don’t have what it takes to get one alone. Nothing against three ways, just being realistic about the easier way.
Why would you think about trading Lowry
when he is our best player. You said he has played like an all star, and since he is only getting 5 mill a year he has already outplayed his contract. Lowry is a better shooter then Rondo, makes less then rondo, and there skill level is pretty equal so why make that move. Howard does not want to come here, so no matter how much cap money we have he is going elsewhere. And with Lee you trade martin for some one way better then Johnson. Minnys first round pick will not be a top five,could possibly drop to 10 or further. I know we can get a better deal then that without giving up Lowry.
by since86rocketsfan on Jan 18, 2012 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
I would think about trading Lowry because no matter what, no one is giving this team a charity franchise player.
You have to part with something of value if you want something of value. To me, Rondo is a widely recognized commodity who can help draw people in to your franchise. Lowry’s game is fun for us to watch but it’s not necessarily fun to play with. Rondo has street ball moves, quality alley oop passes, and is a distribute first PG, which is good to have in a PG Centric offense, especially appealing to big men who want the ball in the post. Kyle is a distributor in a straight forward sense and scorer by necessity. He’s great, but again, give to get.
We do not know if Rondo
can draw other free agents or not. He has only played for Celtics, and Garnett and Allen did not say trade me there to play with Rondo.Chris Paul, and Deron Williams are players i hear superstars want to play with not Rondo or Lowry. I dont care about the fancy moves i would take a hard nosed, defensive minded, get everyone involved, player like Lowry over Rondo anyday. Scola and Martin are worth more then you think they are.
by since86rocketsfan on Jan 18, 2012 6:29 PM CST up reply actions
So you're using uncertainty and hypocrisy to prove your point?
Cause Rondo is a hard-nosed, defensive minded, pass first point guard. Just because you don’t know if Rondo would draw anyone doesn’t mean he wouldn’t. He’s an All-NBA PG with a track record you can build around.
First of all i am talking about lowry
when i say a hard nosed defensive minded player not Rondo. And no i do not know if Rondo will attract other good free agents, thats why i made my statement. You are just assuming that he will because he plays with stars or then stars in Boston. You know that Lowry is a pg a team can build around as well.
by since86rocketsfan on Jan 18, 2012 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
Lowry right now, yes, Lowry a couple years ago, no.
Also, you say defensive minded, hard nosed, and pass first as though Rondo is not, which he is. That was why he got drafted. Your implication is hypocritical.
Of course i am talking about Lowry now
why would i be talking about him a couple years ago. Rondo is a good player and i did not say that he was not those things, i said if you can start reading correctly they are pretty much even, besides Lowry being a better shooter . Rondo makes more and had more around him, i will stick with Lowry. Alot of times your responses make no sense, like when you just said the only reason we beat Portland this year was because they did not have Roy. So i guess the only reason we beat Atlanta was because Dominique did not play, or the reason we blew out the Spurs was because David Robinson was out. Instead of replying just for the sake of it, put alittle more thought behind it.
by since86rocketsfan on Jan 19, 2012 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think you grasp reading comprehension.
So I’m done here, enjoy spinning the tires and tilting at windmills =D
by BD34 on Jan 19, 2012 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Step your game up,
no facts, so you just reply for the sake of it.
by since86rocketsfan on Jan 19, 2012 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
yeah but BD
you have read on the internet before those crazy stories where somene started with a $5 bracelet and ended up making a years worth of trades and then ended up with a $50,000 house. Just saying that there is always someone that wants what you have.
So in the case with the Lakers and Hornets, sure they each got what they wanted but who is to say that the Hornets would have actually wanted what the Lakers were offering if they had to keep both Odom and Gasol.
It seems to me that even with all that talent between the Lakeshow and the Hornets that they still didn´t have the right pieces to make the trade happen between just themselves. The Lakers didn´t just want Paul, they wanted cap freedom to go after Howard and the Hornets didn´t just want Odom because they had bigger plans than that (i.e. flipping Pau for the Rox talent).
So unless I am wrong, in any three team deal, none of the individual teams have what it takes to make the two team deal. But to me there is absolutely nothing wrong with focusing on a three team deal.
Not understanding your wrong focus comment if we ultimately get what we want. And by my estimation, Morey got exacty what he had been stockpiling for over the last two years. What could have been better than that?
You won´t find me overating our talent because I agree with those that say we don´t have very much that another team would want straight up….but we do have something that someone wants so maybe by doing a three or four team trade we end up with our $50,000 house.
Know what I´m sayin?
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 18, 2012 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
When I said wrong focus, I meant I never decried 3 team deals, only the belief that we have what everyone wants.
It took more than what the Rockets had to get it done. To me the reason the Rockets were brought in on the deal was in part due to desperation. We footed most the bill for the Lakers to accomplish their goals. The main reason we got in was to make salaries work and lighten the burden on what LA had to give up.
As for the stories of the 5 dollars into 50,000, I don’t tend to take chain e-mail subjects seriously, hah. For me, if the Rockets really had what other teams wanted, we’d see us get a stud in a two team deal.
I think BD just covered it above
But another way to look at it, just so ppl will stop bringing this up again and again…
From the Lakers perspective, they traded Gasol and Odom for Paul
It was the Hornets who turned Gasol into Scola/Martin/Dragic
The Lakers didn’t care where Gasol ended up
That’s why the Scola/Martin/Dragic for Gasol straight up won’t happen
by Carlos_HoustonSportsFanatic on Jan 18, 2012 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It can´t happen because of the salaries
unless I am mistaking. Besides the Lakers don´t need or want Martin because Kobe plays the 2.
But do you think that right now (today) the Lakers would make the trade in my post above that you replied to? That would be:
Scola, PPat, Hill, Dragic, TWill and some draft picks for Gasol straight up.
by 4theluvofthegame on Jan 18, 2012 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
The Rockets have tried the FA thing
and it got us Sam, but no “go-to” super star. And the Rockets arent likely to trade/gut half their roster for someone who wont sign an extension. So that leaves the draft. We may have gott’n a star without trading Lowry, but Lowry was also a back-up PG at the start of last season. His body of work isnt long enough for him to be demanded in a mega trade. I keep hearing “the Rockets have the assets to make a big trade” but how good are those “assets” if nobody wants them? Everyone wants to trade for a big name player, but nobody wants to give up their fan favorites. Melo, Bosh, Howard, & CP3 all turned down to oppertunity to come here and sign an extension via trade. After a while the Rockets “young talent/tradable assets” wont be so young anymore. And if these guys have soo much potential why are we trying to trade them? Im a Rockets fan, but when I step back and look at this roster I just see a bunch of guys who’ve missed the playoffs 2 straight years and may miss it again.
"Stability is a factor in teams that win the championship. But if you stabilize on a team that's going to end up short of that, then all you're doing is spinning your wheels in the 45-win range."-----Daryl Morey
by fanoflosingteams on Jan 18, 2012 12:32 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah!
What he said…
"Your girlfriend is into them gangstas, and me being a gangsta, i get into your girlfriend"
No man we will never be in the bottom 4 in the standings
KMart will get calls and go to the line more often, schola will start hitting that open jumper in the 4th, Lowry will slow down but not become shit! Bert is the post presence every1 on this blog has been lookin for the last season or two. In the rookie Parsons we have passion and hussle (this is my big problem with tanking/tryin to get a high draft pick) if we dont play to win and fight he will lose is attitude wont be as good a player in my opinion it will stunt his basketball growth. Bud will get his shot Lee is just an all round great guy to be comin off the bench.
WE have a young team some good contracts and seem to draft very well (Parsons, Pat, Bud, Landy, Hayes) i think were headin in the right direction and dont forget Morris in the Dleague and Motiejunas in europe some of his better rankings are
Ranks #1 in Defensive Rebounds (64)
Ranks #11 in Fouls Drawn (44)
Ranks #5 in Minutes Played (312:58)
Ranks #2 in Total Rebounds (79)
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